Elect Israel and The Church the same !

[Darrell C]

Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are being enemies, you deny that,

Amazing. Many times I have said that it is because they are enemies of God and this is why they need to be reconciled, yet here you are defending the opposite view, that men are born saved, then incredibly...erroneously charge me with holding to your own teaching.

Simply amazing.

Here's a previous point I made:


John 3

King James Version (KJV)


3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


If men are saved when they are born...why do they need to be born again?

you have stated that only a opportunity for them was made available for them to be reconciled to God!

I have made it clear that every man has the opportunity to be saved.

But back to the focal error of your doctrine...men are not saved before they are saved.

That is the error which corrupts the teachings you are presenting.

You also are guilty of saying that people Christ died for are born into this world condemned by God!

And I share that guilt with the Word of God, happily.

Which is why you ignore the Scripture which clearly shows your doctrine erroneous.

Men are not saved before they are saved.

The Gospel does not reach the ears of believers and unbelievers, it always reaches the ears of unbelievers, and there will be those who will be reconciled when they come under obedience to the Gospel.

Do you believe that sinners Christ died for are born as condemned by God into the world?

Apparently you are not bothering to read the posts.

That is the only way you could possibly be asking this question.

All men are born condemned, that has been made clear several times.

Either quote what I have said and respond to the points, or I will leave you to your teaching of not just erroneous doctrine, but doctrine that defies common sense.

Your doctrine: the saved are saved before they are saved because they are born saved.

My response: nope.


God bless.

 

[savedbymercy]

Amazing. Many times I have said that it is because they are enemies of God and this is why they need to be reconciled, yet here you are defending the opposite view, that men are born saved, then incredibly...erroneously charge me with holding to your own teaching.

Simply amazing.

Here's a previous point I made:


John 3

King James Version (KJV)


3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


If men are saved when they are born...why do they need to be born again?




I have made it clear that every man has the opportunity to be saved.

But back to the focal error of your doctrine...men are not saved before they are saved.

That is the error which corrupts the teachings you are presenting.




And I share that guilt with the Word of God, happily.

Which is why you ignore the Scripture which clearly shows your doctrine erroneous.

Men are not saved before they are saved.

The Gospel does not reach the ears of believers and unbelievers, it always reaches the ears of unbelievers, and there will be those who will be reconciled when they come under obedience to the Gospel.




Apparently you are not bothering to read the posts.

That is the only way you could possibly be asking this question.

All men are born condemned, that has been made clear several times.

Either quote what I have said and respond to the points, or I will leave you to your teaching of not just erroneous doctrine, but doctrine that defies common sense.

Your doctrine: the saved are saved before they are saved because they are born saved.

My response: nope.


God bless.

They were reconciled to God while being enemies! Rom 5:10 ! You must can't read!

 

[Darrell C]

They were reconciled to God while being enemies! Rom 5:10 ! You must can't read!

I must can't.

Let me try again:

You also are guilty of saying that people Christ died for are born into this world condemned by God! Do you believe that sinners Christ died for are born as condemned by God into the world?

You impose reconciliation before one is born.

That is not what Scripture teaches.

If you address the Scripture then your insistence that people are born saved, rather than under condemnation and in need of reconciliation...would cease.


God bless.

 

[savedbymercy]

I must can't.

Let me try again:





You impose reconciliation before one is born.

That is not what Scripture teaches.

If you address the Scripture then your insistence that people are born saved, rather than under condemnation and in need of reconciliation...would cease.


God bless.

You do realize that many for whom Christ died, He died for them before they were born sinners don't you?

 

[Darrell C]

You do realize that many for whom Christ died, He died for them before they were born sinners don't you?

If they were born sinners how do you say they are saved when born?

Many who died...died as sinners.

Their transgression redeemed by Christ.

But the fact remains...they died in need of the Atonement:


Hebrews 9:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


While in the eternal perspective the Elect are elect, that does not change the fact that they are born sinners under condemnation and in need of the Gospel.


God bless.

 

[savedbymercy]

If they were born sinners how do you say they are saved when born?

Many who died...died as sinners.

Their transgression redeemed by Christ.

But the fact remains...they died in need of the Atonement:


Hebrews 9:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


While in the eternal perspective the Elect are elect, that does not change the fact that they are born sinners under condemnation and in need of the Gospel.


God bless.

Yeah they are born sinners, and they are born reconciled to God by Christ death Rom 5:10 and not condemned for being enemies and or sinners!

 

[Darrell C]

Yeah they are born sinners, and they are born reconciled to God by Christ death Rom 5:10 and not condemned for being enemies and or sinners!

Hmm, seems like we have been here before Toto...


God bless.

 

[savedbymercy]

Hmm, seems like we have been here before Toto...


God bless.

Yeah you dont believe the Truth ! Rom 5:10 !

 

[savedbymercy]

Christ said that the scriptures testified of Him !

John 5:39

Search the scriptures[OT]; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they[The OT Scriptures] are they which testify of me.

Now what does this mean ? The word testify means:

witness, bear witness, give evidence, testify, give a good report.

And one of things it also means is that the OT scriptures give evidence, bear witness to Christ and His Body the Church, for He and His Body the Church has always been One before the Eyes of God, in the same manner that Adam and Eve were One before Him, Paul calls this a Great Mystery Eph 5:30-32

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Understand something, the scriptures of the OT could not have testified of Christ apart from testifying of the Church His Body, for they were always of One Heb 2:11

11 For both he that sanctifieth[Christ] and they who are sanctified[The Church] are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

This scripture indicates the Union of Christ and His Church, His Seed, for He is the " He that sanctifeth" and they are the "they who are sanctified" by Him !

So for instance, when the OT scriptures says this about Christ Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

These Two Entity's are Christ and His Church, His Seed ! Eve was the Seed of Adam, for she came out of Him Gen 2:18-23

18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

When Christ therefore expounded the scriptures concerning Himself, He expounded about the Church as well !

Lk 24:47

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

 

[Revmitchell]

Darrell...Darrell, Darrell, Darrell...

Many have tried this tactic. Very, very few, if any at all, have ever succeeded.

Good luck to you, brother.

No, no no you need to step back and take a breath

 

[DHK]

I posted this in another forum. It seems it needs repeating here, given the title of the thread. It is a quote from another site, a very good article that all should read. This is just a short paragraph from it.

The argument that the Church is the fulfillment of all the Bible's kingdom prophecies is not the only error of Amillennialism. An equally serious one is the assertion that the Church has replaced Israel. This is called Replacement Theology.
The argument usually goes like this: "Since the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah, God rejected them. He poured out His wrath upon them, scattered them all over the earth, and transferred the promises made to them to 'Spiritual Israel,' the Church. God has no purpose left for the Jews. The re-establishment of modern day Israel is, therefore, merely an accident of history with no spiritual meaning."
This viewpoint is held by most of the old mainline, liberal denominations like the Methodists, Presbyterians, and Episcopalians. It is also held by some conservative groups like the Churches of Christ and the Church of God of Anderson, Indiana. Advocates of the view can even be found among Southern Baptists, although most Baptists would reject it.
I would contend that the view is thoroughly unbiblical.
The Jews' Position with God
There is no doubt that God poured out His wrath on the Jewish people in the First Century in response to their rejection of His Son, Jesus, as their Messiah. And there is no doubt they have remained under the discipline of God to this day. But that does not mean they have been rejected by God.
God loves the Jewish people, even in their rebellion. In the everlasting Abrahamic Covenant, God told Abraham that He would bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse them (Genesis 12:3). In like manner, He told the prophet Zechariah that he who touches Israel, "touches the apple of His eye" (Zechariah 2:8).
Isaiah proclaimed that God could never forget Israel because He has them "inscribed on the palms of His hands" (Isaiah 49:14-16). Jeremiah stated that the Jewish people would exist as a nation forever (Jeremiah 31:36). And prophet after prophet asserted that in the end times, a great remnant of the Jews will be saved when they accept Jesus as their Messiah (Isaiah 10:20-22; Jeremiah 31:1-7, 31-34; Ezekiel 6:8-10; Daniel 12:1; Hosea 2:14-20; Joel 2:31-32; Micah 7:18-20; Zephaniah 3:12-13; and Zechariah 12:10).

Are Israel and the Church the same. Obviously not. There are many promises that have not yet been realized or fulfilled that have been given to Israel and not the church. Thus they are separate entities.
Paul prayed for the nation of Israel in Romans 9 and 10. It existed then, and it exists today.

There is more from this article here:
http://www.lamblion.com/articles/articles_millennium7.php

 

[savedbymercy]

The Mystery of Christ !

Some and if not most in false religion would have us believe that the Mystery of Christ in the Gospel was only revealed and known to Paul, but thats a Mistake, For God revealed it to all the Holy Apostles of Jesus Christ Eph 3:1-6

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Lets look again at Vs 5, In the original its the Holy Apostles and Prophets, signifying the Particular Apostles of Christ, Pick by Him and equipped by Him !

This Mystery had to be revealed to the Apostles in order to equip them as Ministers of the New Testament/ Covenant 2 Cor 3:5-6

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Their sufficiency was from Christ the Head to be His New Covenant Ambassadors to Spiritual Israel, the Church, His Body Jn 15:5

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The Prophets of the OT which Preached Christ as He was to come, they were just as much the Body of Christ as was the Apostles/Prophets of the NT, for both looked to the foundation stone of Christ 1 Cor 3:11

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Christ is the foundation to the OT Prophets Isa 28:16

Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Therefore Paul and Isaiah believed on the same foundation stone Christ !

Isaiah , Jeremiah, Daniel and Ezekiel, their Hopes lied in Christ's Righteousness Imputed, for example Isa 54:17

17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage or inheritance of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.

16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.

Dan 9:24

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Ezek 14:14,20

14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God.

20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

This expression "by their righteousness" does not mean any personal righteousness of their own, but that Righteousness as spoken of by Isaiah, which is the inheritance unto the Servants of the Lord Isa 54:17, its the Righteousness of Faith, like said of Noah Heb 11:7

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

That same Righteousness Paul believed in Phil 3:9

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Paul as Noah was a Preacher of Righteousness 2 Pet 2:5

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Note: Its stated among the jews that Noah was a Prophet and Preacher ! Noah was a Prophet / Preacher in the midst of the world of the ungodly again 2 Pet 2:5 !

Also these things evidence the cohesion /continuity of the Church, the Body of Christ, from OT into the NT !

 

[DHK]

Some and if not most in false religion would have us believe that the Mystery of Christ in the Gospel was only revealed and known to Paul, but thats a Mistake, For God revealed it to all the Holy Apostles of Jesus Christ Eph 3:1-6

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Lets look again at Vs 5, In the original its the Holy Apostles and Prophets, signifying the Particular Apostles of Christ, Pick by Him and equipped by Him !

This Mystery had to be revealed to the Apostles in order to equip them as Ministers of the New Testament/ Covenant 2 Cor 3:5-6

Perhaps you don't understand what this "mystery" is.

 

[savedbymercy]

Perhaps you don't understand what this "mystery" is.

You quoted a post of mine, did you understand the points made ?

 

[DHK]

You quoted a post of mine, did you understand the points made ?

Of course I did!
That is why I asked you the question: Perhaps you are the one that doesn't understand what "the mystery" is.

 

[savedbymercy]

Of course I did!
That is why I asked you the question: Perhaps you are the one that doesn't understand what "the mystery" is.

What are the points I made?

 

[DHK]

What are the points I made?

It doesn't matter what points you made. I noted the points you didn't make.
It seemed apparent to me that you don't understand what "the mystery" is.
I don't play your games. And that is all I will say about it.

 

[savedbymercy]

It doesn't matter what points you made. I noted the points you didn't make.
It seemed apparent to me that you don't understand what "the mystery" is.
I don't play your games. And that is all I will say about it.

Then you are being evasive of my points, that is not debating them!

 

[DHK]

Then you are being evasive of my points, that is not debating them!

I have told you already, I am not debating your points. I have no interest in doing so. I made a comment on your post. Apparently you have no interest in discussing it, so leave it at that.

 

[BobRyan]

Wow! So I can take every promise made to Israel and count it as my own.

Have you been reading Romans 9 again??