Sabbath breaking - becomes the mark of the Beast in the future

[BobRyan]

Rebel makes this observation - and gets the following answer in a post on another thread.

I think it deserves some focused attention -- it deals with the question of whether Sabbath breaking matters today.

After all we can ALL agree that if the TEN commandments are dead
- or if the Sabbath commandment can be bent to point to week-day-1,
- or if the Ten Commandments have been downsized to just NINE

then surely this issue of 7th day Sabbath breaking cannot become the mark of the Beast in the future that Rev 13 speaks of.


===========================================

The SDA contains many conservative, evangelical beliefs. The problems I have with the SDA are: Their teaching that Sunday worship is or will be the mark of the beast.

Thank you for your post - your views are always welcome and never taken as ad hominem but always as sincere Christian observation.

We don't say Sunday observance is the mark of the beast rather we say it will be in the future.

If our prediction for the future does not pan out then we were wrong - but how can you present proof that the future does not include this fact - before that time?

...
in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

First fact -- SDAs are not the ONLY ones to recognize the magnitude of not keeping the Sabbath as God gave it in the actual Bible, the unmitigated authority and forwardness it would take to edit/change/dismiss it ---

================================================

For example Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -



[FONT=&quot]The Faith Explained[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
====================begin short summary
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]changing the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord's day[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to Sunday[/FONT][FONT=&quot] was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name". [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]====================================== begin expanded quote
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243[/FONT][FONT=&quot].))

"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]we know that in the O.T it was the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]seventh day[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of the week - the Sabbath day [/FONT][FONT=&quot]- which was [/FONT][FONT=&quot]observed as the Lord's day[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. that was [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the law as God gave it[/FONT][FONT=&quot]...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day[/FONT][FONT=&quot].. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]church had the right to make such a law[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is evident[/FONT][FONT=&quot]...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The reason for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday[/FONT][FONT=&quot] lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday.[/FONT][FONT=&quot].that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church[/FONT]
​

 

[BobRyan]

SDAs are not the only ones to claim that the Sabbath Commandment was given to all mankind in Eden and is still binding on us to this very day --

================================================

- D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??

BY THE
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]DWIGHT L. MOODY[/FONT][/FONT]​

The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17 ​

.
The Fourth Commandment

​

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.​

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was[/FONT][FONT=&quot]- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; [/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

D.L. Moody is not the only one to claim that the TEN Commandments are given to mankind in Eden and still binding on the saints today.

Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 almost identical to the Westminster section 19 quoted above.

Notice how they both fit that 7 point summary already posted on page 1?

[FONT=&quot]Baptist Confession of Faith Section 19 link[/FONT]


Section 19:

C.H. Spurgeon's edition of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" -- [FONT=&quot]CH Spurgeon[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

“The Perpetuity of the Law of God”
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.

Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" .

Section 19
. The Law of God

• God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

• The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

• Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

• To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it __________________

Originally Posted by Baptist Confession of Faith

[FONT=&quot]Section 22.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]


[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Point 7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]7. As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.[/FONT]
​

__________________

 

[BobRyan]

The "Baptist Confession of Faith" is not the only document to claim that the Ten Commandments are still binding on the saints and are part of the moral law of God.

=============================================

Here we have section 19 of the Westminster - and of course you already have a few posts of mine quoting the "Baptist Confession of Faith"

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Westminster Confession of Faith Section 19[/FONT][/FONT]

"Westminster Confession of Faith"

[FONT=&quot]Chapter XIX[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Of the Law of God[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][1][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][2][/FONT][FONT=&quot] the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][3][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][4][/FONT][FONT=&quot] and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][5][/FONT][FONT=&quot] All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][6][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][7][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][8][/FONT][FONT=&quot] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][9][/FONT][FONT=&quot] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][10][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][11][/FONT][FONT=&quot] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][12][/FONT][FONT=&quot] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][13][/FONT][FONT=&quot] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[/FONT][FONT=&quot][14][/FONT][FONT=&quot] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][15][/FONT][FONT=&quot] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][16][/FONT][FONT=&quot] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][17][/FONT][FONT=&quot] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][18][/FONT][FONT=&quot] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][19][/FONT][FONT=&quot] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][20][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][21][/FONT][FONT=&quot] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][22][/FONT]


​

Section 21 of the Westminster and Section 22 of the Baptist both address point 7 "the change" the edit of the Sabbath commandment from the 7th day starting from creation and all through the OT and NT Gospel until the cross where it is "changed" in their mind -- to point to week-day-1.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is my very short summary of the pro-Sunday scholarship statements affirming the still-binding TEN Commandments.

Here is an example of claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

===========================

And so I often use this as my signature line on other boards.

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

And of course 7th day groups

Seventh-day Baptists
Seventh-day Adventists
(and 100's of others)

 

[Revmitchell]

You do understand that Moody held services on Sunday. Right?

 

[BobRyan]

We find the subject of the mark of the beast first mentioned in Rev 13, then heavily referenced in Rev 14 in a warning to the world.

We find the Sabbath commandment spelled out in great detail in Ex 20 and it ends like this.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it



So does Rev 14 point us to Commandment keeping as the issue? To the Sabbath commandment focus??


Rev 14
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”


Rev 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of Godand the faith of Jesus.


=============================


Some will conclude from what is presented on this first page of this thread "That is IT! I don't know why I did not see that before - the Sabbath is still binding and it is every bit as important as all those Christian sources claim - but they are wrong to think it could be edited/changed - and it is being pointed out for us in Rev 14 in the chapter that warns against taking the mark of the Beast".


Others may dismiss it all saying "I don't see anything here - (these are not the droids nothing to see here ) move along"


We all have free will.


in Christ,


Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You do understand that Moody held services on Sunday. Right?

Which is probably why I keep calling him a "pro-Sunday" source.

 

[BobRyan]

But some might say - "surely breaking one of God's Commandments is not something that matters that much to Christ -- so sacrifice in praise and worship -- better than to obey".

Let us test that theory out.

========================================

Bible texts both NT and OT about God's Commandments - Showing that the TEN Commandments are assigned the title "in scripture" as being "Commandments of God" -- and as also being "The Word of God"

10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10


=========================

Christ's thinking on the subject of breaking one of God's Commandments by claiming to bend-edit slightly-modify one of them.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The elders consisting of scrib[FONT=&quot]es and ph[FONT=&quot]arise[FONT=&quot]es [/FONT]are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium[FONT=&quot].[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)

[FONT=&quot]=============================

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Notice that [FONT=&quot]Christ points us to the fact that it voids[FONT=&quot]/[FONT=&quot]negates/ worship[FONT=&quot]. And in Rev 14 i[FONT=&quot]t[/FONT] is the "matter of wor[FONT=&quot]ship" that is being [FONT=&quot]warned about.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Revmitchell]

Col 2:16 Don't let anyone tell you what you must eat or drink. Don't let them say that you must celebrate the New Moon festival, the Sabbath, or any other festival.
Col 2:17 These things are only a shadow of what was to come. But Christ is real!

 

[BobRyan]

Now let us say for the sake of argument that all of these Christian sources are wrong - all the statements of Christ against breaking the commandments can be negated and with a lot of fancy footwork some way can be made to escape what we have seen so far -- no matter how convoluted.

The fact that this presentation as I have given it here is so obvious - and so many Christian groups have signed up for key pieces of it that remind us just how valid the whole thing is - means that AT THE VERY LEAST - the subject should have been presented just as we see it here in every Sunday church in the land and then the great wonderful explanation/solution should have been given showing the wonderful way in which it can all be solved.

EVERYBODY should have been educated on that point by now - instead of sweeping it under the rug, hiding from it... turning from the elephant in the living room and pretending it away -- etc.

At the very least - even the most closed-minded person should agree to this last point.

 

[BobRyan]

Col 2:16 Don't let anyone tell you what you must eat or drink. Don't let them say that you must celebrate the New Moon festival, the Sabbath, or any other festival.
Col 2:17 These things are only a shadow of what was to come. But Christ is real!

In Col 2 - Paul does not void a single text of scripture - not does he declare the "end of eating" or the "end of drinking" or the "end of the Sabbath" -- rather HE condemns "making stuff up".

In Mark 7 they were "making stuff up" about sin getting on fingers then on wheat then inside the person who ate food without dipping fingers in baptism.

In Col 2 the same problem of their "making stuff up" is being addressed. It is not declaring the "end of eating and the end of the Sabbath". It is not the commandments of GOD that Paul is attacking - but rather the "Commandments of Men"

4 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words.
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?

This may help us understand why D.L. Moody and even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" continue to insist that the Sabbath Commandment remains. (Though they claim it is bent to point to week day 1 after the cross)

 

[BobRyan]

When Paul is placed under oath - and gives sworn testimony what is his own claim about the LAW of God?

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"


[FONT=&quot]Acts 21
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Revmitchell]

In Col 2 - Paul does not void a single text of scripture - not does he declare the "end of eating" or the "end of drinking" or the "end of the Sabbath" -- rather HE condemns "making stuff up".

That is just not true and verse 17 make clear the context.

 

[Rebel]

Col 2:16 Don't let anyone tell you what you must eat or drink. Don't let them say that you must celebrate the New Moon festival, the Sabbath, or any other festival.
Col 2:17 These things are only a shadow of what was to come. But Christ is real!

I agree. This Sabbath-keeping teaching seems to me to be a case of turning the Gospel back into Law. I cannot believe the entire counsel of God revolves around keeping the Sabbath as Saturday. To found an entire denomination on this seems far-fetched and legalistic, to me.

 

[DHK]

In Col 2 - Paul does not void a single text of scripture - not does he declare the "end of eating" or the "end of drinking" or the "end of the Sabbath" -- rather HE condemns "making stuff up".

In Mark 7 they were "making stuff up" about sin getting on fingers then on wheat then inside the person who ate food without dipping fingers in baptism.

In Col 2 the same problem of their "making stuff up" is being addressed. It is not declaring the "end of eating and the end of the Sabbath". It is not the commandments of GOD that Paul is attacking - but rather the "Commandments of Men"

You are following the commandments of men.
First, you don't keep the Sabbath, at least not according to Scripture. That would be easy to prove.

Second, in the very examples you use, they condemn you, not excuse you.
For example, Paul went into the Temple and took a vow. You say he put himself under the law, as you do by keeping the Sabbath.
Okay--monkey see; monkey do:
Go to the Temple, take a Jewish vow and keep it for the required amount of days (3 days or 40 days), and then go through the Jewish rites of purification.
Either you are under the law and can do like Paul did, or you are not.
Paul was a Jew; you are not. And you cannot keep the Sabbath; you don't.

Instead you keep the commandments of men (or of a woman), --her idea of what keeping the Sabbath is. It is not the Biblical command of "keeping the Sabbath," is it? Not in the very least.

 

[Darrell C]

Rebel makes this observation - and gets the following answer in a post on another thread.

I think it deserves some focused attention -- it deals with the question of whether Sabbath breaking matters today.

After all we can ALL agree that if the TEN commandments are dead
- or if the Sabbath commandment can be bent to point to week-day-1,
- or if the Ten Commandments have been downsized to just NINE

then surely this issue of 7th day Sabbath breaking cannot become the mark of the Beast in the future that Rev 13 speaks of.


===========================================



Thank you for your post - your views are always welcome and never taken as ad hominem but always as sincere Christian observation.

We don't say Sunday observance is the mark of the beast rather we say it will be in the future.

If our prediction for the future does not pan out then we were wrong - but how can you present proof that the future does not include this fact - before that time?

...
in Christ,

Bob

Bob, not to harp or anything, lol, but do you see what you just did? You tried to prove doctrine with the views of men. How many posts before you brought Scripture into it?

I will focus on one statement:

After all we can ALL agree that if the TEN commandments are dead
- or if the Sabbath commandment can be bent to point to week-day-1,
- or if the Ten Commandments have been downsized to just NINE

You do understand that the Law was given to Israel, right? While Gentiles could proselytize, the Covenant of Law was given unto Israel.

Secondly, when confronting the error of the Judaizers, a statement is made in regards to Gentile believers. Let's take a look first at what Paul confronted specifically:


Acts 15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.


Now I ask you, can we expect Paul, who considered requiring circumcision (which predates the Law I would add, and am sure you are aware of) error, to know what he was talking about, right?

Peter makes a statement on the matter:


6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.


Peter also seems to take issue with the demand of the Judaizers.

The conclusion of the matter?


19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.


Do you think that it is even slightly possible that in making Sabbath keeping mandatory, you violate the intent of the conclusions drawn by Peter and James?


27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.


Not "...and if ye do these things ye shall stay saved," but, "Ye shall do well."

Your statement again:

After all we can ALL agree that if the TEN commandments are dead
- or if the Sabbath commandment can be bent to point to week-day-1,
- or if the Ten Commandments have been downsized to just NINE

No sir, we cannot all agree that the Tem Commandments are dead, or that one has been chopped off, or that one must keep the Sabbath.

Are you then a Judaizer? A Jew?

Does this...


Romans 14

King James Version (KJV)

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.


...and this...


Colossians 2:16-17

King James Version (KJV)


16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


...which, in at least the last passage, show that the Law was but a shadow of those things that would come?

We see that here as well:


Hebrews 8:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


So the question I would pose is this, Bob, have you ever considered that in teaching Sabbath Keeping in accordance to the Law is not really any different than those who demanded circumcision according to the Law?

Do you not see that the Law was but temporary?


Galatians 3:16-19

King James Version (KJV)

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


It just seems to me to be a mingling of the Two quite distinct Covenants. And when we have clear Scripture that makes it clear that Gentiles are not under the Law, and that Jews are to progress to the New Covenant, isn't there at least a question at the back of your mind with this teaching?

And last of all...could somebody please explain to me what on earth failure to keep the Sabbath has to do with the Mark of the Beast? lol


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

You are following the commandments of men.
First, you don't keep the Sabbath, at least not according to Scripture. That would be easy to prove.

Second, in the very examples you use, they condemn you, not excuse you.
For example, Paul went into the Temple and took a vow. You say he put himself under the law, as you do by keeping the Sabbath.
Okay--monkey see; monkey do:
Go to the Temple, take a Jewish vow and keep it for the required amount of days (3 days or 40 days), and then go through the Jewish rites of purification.
Either you are under the law and can do like Paul did, or you are not.
Paul was a Jew; you are not. And you cannot keep the Sabbath; you don't.

Instead you keep the commandments of men (or of a woman), --her idea of what keeping the Sabbath is. It is not the Biblical command of "keeping the Sabbath," is it? Not in the very least.

Let's also not forget that after doing that an offering would also have to be made:


Acts 21:23-26

King James Version (KJV)

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.


While I am not dogmatic on this, I laughed at your "monkey see monkey do," because I feel Paul made a terrible judgment call here. He should have been dogmatic and said "No, I will not, for the sake of the Gentiles, yield to your demand." Yielding led to his imprisonment.

Peter failed in hypocrisy in regards to Gentile believers, and I lean heavily to viewing this as the single, and final mistake Paul would make (giving the High Priest what for excluded, lol).


God bless.

God bless.

 

[vooks]

In Col 2 - Paul does not void a single text of scripture - not does he declare the "end of eating" or the "end of drinking" or the "end of the Sabbath" -- rather HE condemns "making stuff up".

In Mark 7 they were "making stuff up" about sin getting on fingers then on wheat then inside the person who ate food without dipping fingers in baptism.

In Col 2 the same problem of their "making stuff up" is being addressed. It is not declaring the "end of eating and the end of the Sabbath". It is not the commandments of GOD that Paul is attacking - but rather the "Commandments of Men"

So Paul is not voiding any text?
If Paul is basically cautioning against man-made rules for Sabbath, then he equally is cautioning against the same for the Annual and monthly feasts and not censuring any of them. So, why do you cherry pick? Why not keep the New moons, the Annual feasts and not just the sabbath as well the 'godly' way minus 'commandments of men'?

Paul is clear that all feasts, Annual,monthly and weekly are SHADOWS.
Adventism are basically shadow hunters ignoring the reality which is Christ