Sabbath breaking - becomes the mark of the Beast in the future

[BobRyan]

Galatians 3:13-17

King James Version (KJV)

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Which brings us back to this point again.

The argument that the LAW of God saves the lost or that Law-keeping is how the lost person becomes saved -- is not the dispute. This is not what is being presented.

The argument is about the saved person and the LAW of God "written on the mind and heart" under the NEW Covenant - Jer 31:31-33 Heb 8 being the moral LAW of God - that includes the TEN Commandments --- a Bible detail so clear that both sides affirm it - both the majority of pro-sunday scholarship AND the Biblical-Sabbath groups affirm that same point.

Which brings us back to this point again.

you have a two-gospel model - one for OT saints and one for NT saints.

In Gal 1:6-9 Paul says that is wrong - there has always been only ONE Gospel.

Gal 3:7 that Gospel was "preached to Abraham"

Heb 4:1-2 that Gospel "was preached to US just as it was to THEM Also"

The idea that men were only to refrain from taking God's name in vain UNTIL Christ dies on the cross is not the teaching of the NT writers. They never argue against the Commandments of God - they always argue for them.

Not as a means of salvation - but as that which is written on the heart and mind under the New Covenant.

Hence the many many references in the NT to upholding the Commandments of God in my prior post.

"IF you LOVE Me keep My commandments" is not about "if you Love me and want the Gospel promise of the NEW Covenant do not keep My Commandments" - as I think we would all agree.

Does our faith abolish the Law of God in some way? or establish it? Rom 3:31

that is the basic question that Paul answers.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

And out of time, so catch you later.

One last question: since you see me as teaching a false gospel, does this mean we aren't friends anymore?


God bless.

Nope I would never say that. I greatly appreciate the time, thought and Bible study you bring to this discussion. I think that the solution, the model that you are using runs into trouble in Gal 1:6-9 and in Gal 3:7 and in Heb 4:1 because it needs one form of salvation/acceptance with God before the cross that is diametrically opposed to what we have after the cross such that in Matt 17 - Moses and Elijah saved - and standing with Christ pre-cross are saved by some works gospel and everyone after the cross saved by grace.

That is a problem in the solution - in the model.

And out of time, so catch you later.

I look forward to your having more time for this important subject in the future as I believe you bring very important objections to light regarding my OP and all parts of this subject should be taken into consideration.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

it is very different

Under the New Covenant "I will write my LAW on their mind and on their heart" Heb 8... Jer 31:31-33

the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW of God"

the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

1 John 5:1-4
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

Thus Paul can say "what matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

And in Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" in the NEW Heavens and New Earth for all eternity according to this scripture.

"If you LOVE Me Keep My commandments" John 14:15

Which is why the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship argues that the Ten Commandments are part of the moral law of God -- written on the heart under the New Covenant.

Of all the points where we COULD differ on this subject the very point where we DO differ is the ONE point where the majority of pro-Sunday scholars AND ALSO the Bible Sabbath Christians agree - that the TEN Commandments remain for Christians under the NEW Covenant and this includes the Sabbath Commandment.

It is very different, lol.

Do you see you have no New Testament passages to support keeping the weekly Sabbath? Not one?

To make that case you need to establish some key facts.

1. That the commandments of God do not include the Ten Commandments spoken By God and called the Commandments of God by Christ in Mark 7.
2. Or that the Ten Commandments do not include the Sabbath Commandment.
3. And that the 'scripture' used in Acts 17:11 to test Paul "sola scriptura" and in 2Tim 3:16-17 the SCRIPTURES (ALL Scripture according to the text) "to be used for doctrine" are not the actual scriptures that were in use in the NT -- since aLL reference to "scripture" in the NT is a reference to the OT.

The Catholics claim to have 77 books of scripture "for doctrine" - the 66 Plus 11 apocryphal.

The Protestants claim to have 66 "for doctrine"

Those who reject the OT claim to have 27 "for doctrine".

Those who reject the gospels since they describe pre-coss events - claim to have a downsize 23 "for doctrine".

I am one of the 66 -ers.

And let's look at this with v.5 thrown in:


1 John 5:1-5

King James Version (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


The context is about regeneration, and that is how we overcome. When we believe on Christ and are born again.

Agreed.

Romans 8:4-9 says the saints walk by the Spirit and keep God's Commandments but the lost Do not submit to the law of God "neither indeed CAN they"

1John 2:1 "These things I write to you that you SIN not"
1John 3;4 "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"
1John 5:1-4 - then seals the deal on that point.

Nothing whatsoever about Keeping the First Covenant (Covenant of Law) or the Sabbath.

2Cor 3 - the LAW written on stone - is written on the tablets of the human heart under the NEW Covenant -

Jer 31:31-33 "I will write My LAWS on their mind and heart" -- exegesis demands that we use the same concept for LAW that Jeremiah and his readers would have known.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I think you would argue that D.L Moody was simply wrong here. And so also R.C. Sproul, Andy Stanley, Chuck Swindol etc.

SDAs are not the only ones to claim that the Sabbath Commandment was given to all mankind in Eden and is still binding on us to this very day --

================================================

- D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??

BY THE
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]DWIGHT L. MOODY[/FONT][/FONT]​

The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17 ​

.
The Fourth Commandment

​

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.​

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was[/FONT][FONT=&quot]- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; [/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

And I think you might agree that Chuck Swindol does agree with D.L Moody on that point - far more than those who argue that the Sabbath commandment is the one commandment we should ignore.

[FONT=&quot]Chuck Swindol[/FONT]l

[FONT=&quot]It's interesting what our Creator did on the seventh day of creation. Do you remember? Just in case you forgot, read Genesis 2:2 for yourself: "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done."[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Now, why? Why did Almighty God need to rest? He didn't need to, He chose to. But why? Being God, He certainly wasn't tired (an absolute impossibility). He rested because He considered His work complete. He also rested to leave us an example to follow . . [/FONT][FONT=&quot]. to pattern our lives after[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Many, many [/FONT][FONT=&quot]years later,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] He very deliberately included the importance of resting [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in His top ten priorities.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] These have come to be called the Ten Commandments. Obviously, they represent the ten things God cares about the most when it comes to wholesome human behavior. Number four on that list is found in Exodus 20:8-11, which reads:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the L[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ORD[/FONT][FONT=&quot] your God; in it you shall not do any work. . . . For in six days the L[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ORD[/FONT][FONT=&quot] made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the L[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ORD[/FONT][FONT=&quot] blessed the sabbath day and made it holy."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Sabbath" is actually a Hebrew term, meaning "seventh." The seventh day of the week is Saturday. It was tradition that transferred Saturday to Sunday, but in God's original plan, He never had Sunday in mind, only the seventh---or last---day of the week. On that final day, REST![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My concern at this point is not which day you choose to rest and relax---only that you take time to do so. As Jesus taught, "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" (Mark 2:27)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://daily.insight.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=13409[/FONT]

Of all the points where we COULD differ on this thread/subject the one key point where we DO differ most directly is the ONE point where both the majority of pro-Sunday scholars AND also the Bible Sabbath Christians DO Agree - which is that the TEN Commandments are still binding on all the saints and that this includes the Sabbath Commandment.

 

[Darrell C]

Can you say that while quoting the New Covenant?

Heb 8
He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Absolutely:


Ephesians 2:13-15

King James Version (KJV)

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

And...with a straight face...


:saint:

My point is that all the saints are considered in that same statement as Romans 2 confirms for who is a real Jew.

in the same way that "do not take God's name in vain" in Ex 20 is not just restricted to literal Jews which is why even the pro-sunday sources on page one of this thread are affirming the Ten Commandments binding on all the saints in all of time.

in Christ,

Bob

Doesn't change the fact that the reunification of Judah is a separate issue from the unification of all men in Christ. Israel does not lose her identity completely and definitely not until she comes under the New Covenant, which is shown to occur during the Tribulation.

As far as the Principles of the Law, those never change. It is never going to be okay to commit idolatry, murder, steal, et cetera, but if we maintain the Basic Principles then we are in fact ignoring the completion Christ brought to our understanding of the Law (Written and revealed Word).

In other words, as long as I do not kill someone physically then I am good...according to what you are saying here.

Understand?

In regards to the Sabbath, I believe we exchange the weekly Sabbath for a view that every day is holy unto the Lord. That change is due to the indwelling of the Spirit which again...you cannot impose in Old Testament Economies.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Which brings us back to this point again.



Which brings us back to this point again.



"IF you LOVE Me keep My commandments" is not about "if you Love me and want the Gospel promise of the NEW Covenant do not keep My Commandments" - as I think we would all agree.

Does our faith abolish the Law of God in some way? or establish it? Rom 3:31

that is the basic question that Paul answers.

in Christ,

Bob

This is not even relevant to the point I made.

No-one is suggesting that the "Law of God" has been abolished, in view is the Covenant of Law. There is a difference.

Furthermore, how you arrive at...

"IF you LOVE Me keep My commandments" is not about "if you Love me and want the Gospel promise of the NEW Covenant do not keep My Commandments" - as I think we would all agree.

...from...

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post


Galatians 3:13-17

King James Version (KJV)

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

...and the accompanying point...

The context is about regeneration, and that is how we overcome. When we believe on Christ and are born again.

Nothing whatsoever about Keeping the First Covenant (Covenant of Law) or the Sabbath.

...is beyond me.


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

I am under the NEW Covenant - made with the house of Israel and Judah.

Heb 8
He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.


Romans 2
25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW of God" Rom 3:31

"If you LOVE Me Keep My commandments" John 14:15



Romans 14 never mentions the weekly Sabbath at all.

It is talking about the annual holy days listed in Lev 23 where some "observe one day above another while another observes them all". As Paul was doing.

in Christ,

Bob

Genesis 12:2-3

King James Version (KJV)

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


God has always intended to redeem all men, not just Israel and Judah.

It is because Israel was so entrenched in the Law that they rejected Christ. The Writer of Hebrews rebukes them often on this point.


Your point? This makes it clear that circumcision according to the Law has no bearing on the reality of being in obedience to God.

1 Cor 7:19 contrasts the ceremonial law of circumcision with the moral law of God - that includes the Ten Commandments.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is that we KEEP the Commandments of God"

And how do we do that which the Hebrew people failed to do?


Ezekiel 36:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Romans 8:4-9 argues that it is not possible for the lost to keep or submit to God's Law. It contrasts their condition with that of the saved saints.

Now look back up at Galatians 3:14. You could also, if you have time, take a look at Paul's point, well, I'll just post it:


Galatians 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" pre-cross command of Christ is not "a call to legalism".

It is the same thing we find in 1John 5:1-4 and 1Cor 7:19 and Rev 14:12.

And what are His commandments?

John tells me...


1 John 5:2-4

King James Version (KJV)

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


Here is the beginning of keeping the commandments of Christ:

Agreed which is why I point out that Christ said in Mark 7;6-13 that the TEN Commandments are included in what HE called "the Commandments of God".

John 3:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


Who under the Covenant of Law was born again, Bob?

John 3 points out this is the case with all NT saints.

In Matt 17 we see Moses and Elijah fully glorified standing with Christ - born again saints -- in the OT.

Here's another one:


John 15

King James Version (KJV)

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


Which of Christ's disciples obeyed this command, Bob?

John 15:14 "LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"
Ex 20 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

And in Heb 8:6-11 we are told that the Ten Commandments were given by God the Son - Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 14 never mentions the weekly Sabbath at all.

So the Sabbath was not a holy day?

All Holy Days are covered here, Bob.


Oh, so they can keep the Law by keeping the weekly Sabbath but the annual Holy Days are of no consequence any longer, right?

Come on, Bob.


God bless.

We have a list of annual holy days in Lev 23 - and Paul says in Rom 14 that one man observes one above the other while another observes them all.

In Is 66:23 we know that for all eternity 'from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" -

The Ten Commandments are not abolished.

But in Heb 10 the animal sacrifices and all the services that were based-on observed-as animal sacrifice as given by God were ended because there was no way to fully observe them without sacrificing animals or an earthly priesthood.

Not so with the Ten Commandments.

Not so with the Sabbath Commandment.

It is not an "accident" that so many of even the pro-sunday scholars know that the Sabbath commandment remains and that they hold some part of their teaching in common with Bible-Sabbath keeping Christians.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post

And out of time, so catch you later.

One last question: since you see me as teaching a false gospel, does this mean we aren't friends anymore?


God bless.

Nope I would never say that. I greatly appreciate the time, thought and Bible study you bring to this discussion.

Very glad to hear that my friend.

I think that the solution, the model that you are using runs into trouble in Gal 1:6-9 and in Gal 3:7 and in Heb 4:1 because it needs one form of salvation/acceptance with God before the cross that is diametrically opposed to what we have after the cross such that in Matt 17 - Moses and Elijah saved - and standing with Christ pre-cross are saved by some works gospel and everyone after the cross saved by grace.

That is a problem in the solution - in the model.

There is no problem, it is simply a matter of understanding the temporal quality of the Old Testament Economies versus the eternal quality of the New Testament/Covenant.

For example:


Hebrews 9:6-9

King James Version (KJV)

6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


The writer distinguishes some pretty important facts here in contrasting the First Covenant with the New.

And this will be brief, I am out of time thirty minutes ago, lol.


11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


What he presents here is that the Old Testament Saint died having only Levitical Service as the means for Atonement, and it is not until Christ actually dies their transgression are redeemed. He makes this point several times throughout the Book.


22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


Now just as in the first quote, here we see something truly astonishing...Christ went into Heaven. Now look back at the first quote:


8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


What he is saying is the same thing Christ said here:


John 3:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


He further drives this point home in saying...


Hebrews 10:15-20

King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


The point to all this in response to your suggestion there is a different salvation afforded the Old Testament saint is just to say...

...they were saved eternally in the Old Testament. While we know they were "saved" in the sense of being faithful and their eternal as secure as any born again believer today...

...they had not yet had their sins atoned for and Reconciliation on a New Covenant level had not taken place.

Go back and consider again my posts speaking about the Mystery of the Gospel. Do a word study on Mystery itself, it's a great study.

The problem is not in the solution, lol, the problem is imposing into the Old Testament Economies something that was not realized in the Old Testament, and would not be realized until Christ came, Died, Resurrected, Returned to Heaven, and sent the Promised Spirit.

Regeneration is in fact the result of the internal and eternal indwelling of God, as compared with the external ministry of God in the lives of men in the Old Testament.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
And out of time, so catch you later.

I look forward to your having more time for this important subject in the future as I believe you bring very important objections to light regarding my OP and all parts of this subject should be taken into consideration.

in Christ,

Bob

I agree, it's best when those of us who have opposing views actually try to understand why those differences are in place.

Out of time, Bob, so see you in the next round.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Romans 14 never mentions the weekly Sabbath at all.



We have a list of annual holy days in Lev 23 - and Paul says in Rom 14 that one man observes one above the other while another observes them all.

In Is 66:23 we know that for all eternity 'from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" -

The Ten Commandments are not abolished.

But in Heb 10 the animal sacrifices and all the services that were based-on observed-as animal sacrifice as given by God were ended because there was no way to fully observe them without sacrificing animals or an earthly priesthood.

Not so with the Ten Commandments.

Not so with the Sabbath Commandment.

It is not an "accident" that so many of even the pro-sunday scholars know that the Sabbath commandment remains and that they hold some part of their teaching in common with Bible-Sabbath keeping Christians.

in Christ,

Bob

I agree the Ten Commandments were not abolished...they were made more difficult for us, because we understand the intent behind them now, and this due to the Promised Spirit.

Doesn't change the fact that we are not commanded to observe the Sabbath as Gentiles, nor are the Jews commanded to because they are of Israel.


God bless.

 

[vooks]

Romans 14 never mentions the weekly Sabbath at all.

Roman 14 mentions ESTEEMING a day above others and ESTEEMING all alike. Isn't this what sabbath keeping is, ESTEEMING Saturday above the other days of the week?

We have a list of holy days in Lev 23

And the weekly sabbath is among them

- and Paul says in Rom 14 that one man observes one above the other while another observes them all.

You are a dishonest man; first, you rule out the weekly sabbath from Romans 14 without any reason, then you force other Jewish feasts here.

In Is 66:23 we know that for all eternity 'from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" -

Be wise BobRyan
Isaiah 66:23 (KJV)
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another,
and from one sabbath to another,

If there will be sabbath in eternity, there will be NEW MOON

The Ten Commandments are not abolished.

But in Heb 10 the animal sacrifices and all the services that were based-on observed-as animal sacrifice as given by God were ended because there was no way to fully observe them without sacrificing animals or an earthly priesthood.

Not so with the Ten Commandments.

Not so with the Sabbath Commandment.

It is not an "accident" that so many of even the pro-sunday scholars know that the Sabbath commandment remains and that they hold some part of their teaching in common with Bible-Sabbath keeping Christians.

in Christ,

Bob

If no man should judge me over sabbath, sabbath is abrogated.
Imagine Paul saying BobRyan should not be judged over adultery; that he can sleep around as much as he can handle
Show me anywhere the sin of breaking sabbath is mentioned in NT. yet I can show you breaking of all others. Why couldn't Paul give instructions for Sabbath to Gentiles?

 

[BobRyan]

I agree the Ten Commandments were not abolished...they were made more difficult for us, because we understand the intent behind them now, and this due to the Promised Spirit.

Certainly the thought-version of the Ten Commandments where the mere thought that is dwelt upon and engaged in is also sin according to Christ Matt 5 - requires a spirit-filled life so that we are "Taking every THOUGHT captive to the OBEDIENCE of Christ" as we are said to be doing in 2Cor 10:4-5

No wonder Paul says in Rom 8:4-9 that this is not even possible for the lost.

Doesn't change the fact that we are not commanded to observe the Sabbath as Gentiles

1. The "Ten Commandments" include the "4th Commandment".
2. Gentiles are said to be given this command in Is 56.
3. Christ said it was for 'all mankind' Mark 2:27 which includes Gentiles.
4. Is 66:23 - it is "for ALL Mankind"

Notice what Chuck Swindoll says about it.


=========

I think you might agree that Chuck Swindol does agree with D.L Moody on that point - far more than those who argue that the Sabbath commandment is the one commandment we should ignore.

[FONT=&quot]Chuck Swindol[/FONT]l

===============================================
Quote:
[FONT=&quot]It's interesting what our Creator did on the seventh day of creation. Do you remember? Just in case you forgot, read Genesis 2:2 for yourself: "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done."[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Now, why? Why did Almighty God need to rest? He didn't need to, He chose to. But why? Being God, He certainly wasn't tired (an absolute impossibility). He rested because He considered His work complete. He also rested to leave us an example to follow . . [/FONT][FONT=&quot]. to pattern our lives after[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Many, many [/FONT][FONT=&quot]years later,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] He very deliberately included the importance of resting [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in His top ten priorities.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] These have come to be called the Ten Commandments. Obviously, they represent the ten things God cares about the most when it comes to wholesome human behavior. Number four on that list is found in Exodus 20:8-11, which reads:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the L[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ORD[/FONT][FONT=&quot] your God; in it you shall not do any work. . . . For in six days the L[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ORD[/FONT][FONT=&quot] made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the L[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ORD[/FONT][FONT=&quot] blessed the sabbath day and made it holy."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Sabbath" is actually a Hebrew term, meaning "seventh." The seventh day of the week is Saturday. It was tradition that transferred Saturday to Sunday, but in God's original plan, He never had Sunday in mind, only the seventh---or last---day of the week. On that final day, REST![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My concern at this point is not which day you choose to rest and relax---only that you take time to do so. As Jesus taught, "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" (Mark 2:27)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://daily.insight.org/site/News2?...ticle&id=13409[/FONT]

====================================

Of all the points where we COULD differ on this thread/subject the one key point where we DO differ most directly is the ONE point where both the majority of pro-Sunday scholars AND also the Bible Sabbath Christians DO Agree - which is that the TEN Commandments are still binding on all the saints and that this includes the Sabbath Commandment.

Now suppose Andy Stanley, D.L. Moody, Chuck Swindoll , C.H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry .... are all wrong to say that the TEN Commandments are the moral law of God, include the 4th Commandment, are still binding on all the saints ...etc.

All that much more important the question "then why has NOT whatever brilliant solution there is to this - been presented each Sunday so that none be confused"??

Why is this one point where both sides agree on this one detail - also the point that is being swept under the rug, such that (according to some) even Swindoll, Stanley, Sproul etc are confused on the issue?

 

[BobRyan]

Roman 14 mentions ESTEEMING a day above others and ESTEEMING all alike. Isn't this what sabbath keeping is, ESTEEMING Saturday above the other days of the week?

Romans 14 says "He who OBSERVES the day OBSERVES it for the Lord" - the "esteemed day" in Rom 14 is "observed".

The Lev 23 annual holy days were "observed". But Romans 14 does not mention the weekly Sabbath.

In Mark 7 Christ said "Judge not that you be not judge".

Yet in Matt 5 Christ said that he who sets aside even the least commandment and so teaches others - is condemned not by man but by God, by those in heaven.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Those who say that the Sabbath is only for Jewish Christians, or not in the Ten Commandments that God affirms as still valid, or nailed to the cross etc will often admit to at least one Bible detail that is irrefutable. Which is that this Commandment of God cannot be "edited" -- not even by man-made tradition.

Suppose for a moment that the non-SDA group that makes that case is right to say that the Commandment cannot be edited.

Suppose for a moment that the non-SDA group that includes Chunk Swindoll, C.H Spurgion, D.L. Moody, Matthew Henry group are right to say that the Ten Commandments are the moral law of God and still binding today even for the saints.

If that part of BOTH those positions are right (even though they are from non-SDA groups) - then what of the OP?

And what of this post on page 1 -- #8

 

[vooks]

Romans 14 says "He who OBSERVES the day OBSERVES it for the Lord" - the "esteemed day" in Rom 14 is "observed".

My brother, semantics is a terminal mental illness....I mean it

Romans 14:5-6 (KJV)
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

Now let's go Greek
'Esteemeth' is κρίνω (krinō)
Here is krinō defined. Many definitions. This is the most sensible;
to separate; to make a distinction between; to exercise judgment upon; to estimate,
https://www.teknia.com/greek-dictionary/krino

'Regardeth' is φρονέω (phroneō)
to heed, pay regard to
Again this makes the most sense
https://www.teknia.com/greek-dictionary/phroneo

KEEPING sabbath is making a distinction between Saturday and other days
KEEPING sabbath is paying regard to Saturday over and above other days

If what SDAs do is not phroneō nor krinō, please tell me what is and give examples

The Lev 23 annual holy days were "observed". But Romans 14 does not mention the weekly Sabbath.

Leviticus 23:1-2 (KJV)
And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. 3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.
Leviticus 23 mentions sabbath together with other feasts. Romans does not mention ANY feast my brother, but observing or keeping ANY feast including Saturday would be phroneō and krinō, 'regarding' and 'esteeming' it ABOVE other days

You are commanded to 'keep' the sabbath in Exodus 20:8, in Deut 5:12 to sanctify/set it apart. In short, EVERYTHING you do on and for Saturday is exactly what a Jew bound by Torah would do for a New Moon and an annual feast. The difference between you and them is FREQUENCY.

In Mark 7 Christ said "Judge not that you be not judge".

Very true

Yet in Matt 5 Christ said that he who sets aside even the least commandment and so teaches others - is condemned not by man but by God, by those in heaven.

in Christ,

Bob

Who set aside Passover, Tabarnacles?

I know that automatically BobRyan sees 'commandment' he sees the Ten whereas any instruction from God is a commandment. This is a convenient assumption to help him break as much of the Torah as possible without guilt while maintaining that he is 'keeping' the commandments.

To help you with comprehension, please define the word 'commandment'

 

[McCree79]

First fact -- SDAs are not the ONLY ones to recognize the magnitude of not keeping the Sabbath as God gave it in the actual Bible, the unmitigated authority and forwardness it would take to edit/change/dismiss it ---

================================================

For example Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -



[FONT=&quot]The Faith Explained[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
====================begin short summary
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]changing the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord's day[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to Sunday[/FONT][FONT=&quot] was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name". [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]====================================== begin expanded quote
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243[/FONT][FONT=&quot].))

"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]we know that in the O.T it was the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]seventh day[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of the week - the Sabbath day [/FONT][FONT=&quot]- which was [/FONT][FONT=&quot]observed as the Lord's day[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. that was [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the law as God gave it[/FONT][FONT=&quot]...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day[/FONT][FONT=&quot].. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]church had the right to make such a law[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is evident[/FONT][FONT=&quot]...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The reason for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday[/FONT][FONT=&quot] lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday.[/FONT][FONT=&quot].that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church[/FONT]
​

The RCC has nothing to do with the Sunday observance. Justin Martyr says it was in observance of Christ's resurrection.....he pre-dates Constantine's RCC by couple hundred years or so.

Sunday was chosen to recognize Christ as Lord....and Lord of the Sabbath, as he declared himself to be.

Paul states

Col. 2:16[†]Therefore let no one *pass judgment on you*in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17[†] *These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ

The Sabbath belongs to Christ. We honor it on his resurrection day. We honor and praise Him.



[

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]Chuck Swindol[/FONT]l

===============================================
Quote:
[FONT=&quot]It's interesting what our Creator did on the seventh day of creation. Do you remember? Just in case you forgot, read Genesis 2:2 for yourself: "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done."[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Now, why? Why did Almighty God need to rest? He didn't need to, He chose to. But why? Being God, He certainly wasn't tired (an absolute impossibility). He rested because He considered His work complete. He also rested to leave us an example to follow . . [/FONT][FONT=&quot]. to pattern our lives after[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Many, many [/FONT][FONT=&quot]years later,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] He very deliberately included the importance of resting [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in His top ten priorities.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] These have come to be called the Ten Commandments. Obviously, they represent the ten things God cares about the most when it comes to wholesome human behavior. Number four on that list is found in Exodus 20:8-11, which reads:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the L[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ORD[/FONT][FONT=&quot] your God; in it you shall not do any work. . . . For in six days the L[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ORD[/FONT][FONT=&quot] made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the L[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ORD[/FONT][FONT=&quot] blessed the sabbath day and made it holy."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Sabbath" is actually a Hebrew term, meaning "seventh." The seventh day of the week is Saturday. It was tradition that transferred Saturday to Sunday, but in God's original plan, He never had Sunday in mind, only the seventh---or last---day of the week. On that final day, REST![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My concern at this point is not which day you choose to rest and relax---only that you take time to do so. As Jesus taught, "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" (Mark 2:27)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://daily.insight.org/site/News2?...ticle&id=13409[/FONT]

Who set aside Passover, Tabarnacles?

I know that automatically BobRyan sees 'commandment' he sees the Ten whereas any instruction from God is a commandment.

Do you view "Charles Swindoll" as another name for BobRyan?

His text, R.C. Sprouls, C.H. Spurgeon, D.L. Moody, Matthew Henry and a host of others all admit to the same Bible details regarding the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God still binding on mankind today.

I think you would argue that they were all mistaken.

What then is the Bible detail that they all miss?

But some might say - "surely breaking one of God's Commandments is not something that matters that much to Christ -- so sacrifice in praise and worship -- better than to obey".

Let us test that theory out.

========================================

Bible texts both NT and OT about God's Commandments - Showing that the TEN Commandments are assigned the title "in scripture" as being "Commandments of God" -- and as also being "The Word of God"

10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10


=========================

Christ's thinking on the subject of breaking one of God's Commandments by claiming to bend-edit slightly-modify one of them.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The elders consisting of scrib[FONT=&quot]es and ph[FONT=&quot]arise[FONT=&quot]es [/FONT]are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium[FONT=&quot].[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)

[FONT=&quot]=============================

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Notice that [FONT=&quot]Christ points us to the fact that it voids[FONT=&quot]/[FONT=&quot]negates/ worship[FONT=&quot]. And in Rev 14 i[FONT=&quot]t[/FONT] is the "matter of wor[FONT=&quot]ship" that is being [FONT=&quot]warned about.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

This is a convenient assumption to help him break as much of the Torah as possible without guilt while maintaining that he is 'keeping' the commandments.

To help you with comprehension, please define the word 'commandment'

Christ helps us with that task in Mark 7:6-13 as noted above.

As does Paul in Romans 7.

As does Paul in Eph 6:1-2.

As does James in James 2.

 

[Darrell C]

Certainly the thought-version of the Ten Commandments where the mere thought that is dwelt upon and engaged in is also sin according to Christ Matt 5 - requires a spirit-filled life so that we are "Taking every THOUGHT captive to the OBEDIENCE of Christ" as we are said to be doing in 2Cor 10:4-5

No wonder Paul says in Rom 8:4-9 that this is not even possible for the lost.

1. The "Ten Commandments" include the "4th Commandment".
2. Gentiles are said to be given this command in Is 56.
3. Christ said it was for 'all mankind' Mark 2:27 which includes Gentiles.
4. Is 66:23 - it is "for ALL Mankind"

Notice what Chuck Swindoll says about it.


=========

I think you might agree that Chuck Swindol does agree with D.L Moody on that point - far more than those who argue that the Sabbath commandment is the one commandment we should ignore.

[FONT=&quot]Chuck Swindol[/FONT]l

===============================================
Quote:
[FONT=&quot]It's interesting what our Creator did on the seventh day of creation. Do you remember? Just in case you forgot, read Genesis 2:2 for yourself: "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done."[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Now, why? Why did Almighty God need to rest? He didn't need to, He chose to. But why? Being God, He certainly wasn't tired (an absolute impossibility). He rested because He considered His work complete. He also rested to leave us an example to follow . . [/FONT][FONT=&quot]. to pattern our lives after[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Many, many [/FONT][FONT=&quot]years later,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] He very deliberately included the importance of resting [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in His top ten priorities.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] These have come to be called the Ten Commandments. Obviously, they represent the ten things God cares about the most when it comes to wholesome human behavior. Number four on that list is found in Exodus 20:8-11, which reads:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the L[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ORD[/FONT][FONT=&quot] your God; in it you shall not do any work. . . . For in six days the L[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ORD[/FONT][FONT=&quot] made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the L[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ORD[/FONT][FONT=&quot] blessed the sabbath day and made it holy."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Sabbath" is actually a Hebrew term, meaning "seventh." The seventh day of the week is Saturday. It was tradition that transferred Saturday to Sunday, but in God's original plan, He never had Sunday in mind, only the seventh---or last---day of the week. On that final day, REST![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My concern at this point is not which day you choose to rest and relax---only that you take time to do so. As Jesus taught, "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" (Mark 2:27)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://daily.insight.org/site/News2?...ticle&id=13409[/FONT]

====================================

Of all the points where we COULD differ on this thread/subject the one key point where we DO differ most directly is the ONE point where both the majority of pro-Sunday scholars AND also the Bible Sabbath Christians DO Agree - which is that the TEN Commandments are still binding on all the saints and that this includes the Sabbath Commandment.

Now suppose Andy Stanley, D.L. Moody, Chuck Swindoll , C.H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry .... are all wrong to say that the TEN Commandments are the moral law of God, include the 4th Commandment, are still binding on all the saints ...etc.

All that much more important the question "then why has NOT whatever brilliant solution there is to this - been presented each Sunday so that none be confused"??

Why is this one point where both sides agree on this one detail - also the point that is being swept under the rug, such that (according to some) even Swindoll, Stanley, Sproul etc are confused on the issue?

I would agree that the Ten Commandments present the principles of morality and obedience to God and interaction with our neighbor, but again we still have no command to specifically worship on the Sabbath.

You can deny that the Weekly Sabbath is in view here...


Colossians 2:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


...but it is a weak argument.

It is right there in the text, my friend, and it establishes the principle that I cannot judge you for believing you must obey the Law, and you cannot judge me for my view that every day is to be equally holy unto God.

Having specific days can be a snare for some, who think that because they fulfill a "charge" they are being obedient to God.

And I would again point out that the shadow of the Covenant of Law was only meant to be temporary. Again, the magnitude of Christ's Work and the difference between the external compliance of man in religion (Judaism) can in no way be compared with the internal and eternal realities of that which has been bestowed upon us.

And again...the Old Testament Saint had not received what we have.

Consider:


John 20:19

King James Version (KJV)

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.


Meeting on the First Day of the Week had as a reason the fact that Christ was rejected of Israel on a National level.

It was okay then, and we see the Lord coming unto them. Not saying, "You can't meet today, have you forsaken the Law?"

But peace be unto you.

Christ is still meeting the faithful on this day, my friend, as well as on Saturday, and Monday, and Tuesday, and...well, you get the point.

Don't be surprised that demanding Sabbath observance is viewed as being reminiscent of the demands of Judaizers. And keep in mind that Paul went in to witness and teach the Jews on their turf.


Acts 13:14-17

King James Version (KJV)

14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.



God bless.

 

[DHK]

I think you would argue that D.L Moody was simply wrong here. And so also R.C. Sproul, Andy Stanley, Chuck Swindol etc.

Why do you bring this man up. I have pointed this out to you before. It is deception, lies, dishonesty, hypocrisy and a whole lot of other things.

Moody did not believe in the Sabbath.
Moody did not keep the Sabbath.
Moody' sermon--the purpose of it--was simply to urge people to set aside time from their busy work seek so they would be in church on Sundays, not the Sabbath.
He had no interest in laboriously keeping the Sabbath.
Moody distanced himself deliberately from all SDA teaching on the Sabbath.

For you to use Moody's material either shows ignorance (which is not the case) or crass dishonesty, which is the case. Why are you so dishonest, Bob. This man hated the doctrines of the SDA!