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Sabbath breaking - becomes the mark of the Beast in the future
- Thread starter BobRyan
- Start date
vooks
Active Member
Colossians 2:16 (KJV)
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ
Galatians 4:9-10 (KJV)
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
Paul's exasperation is palpable, all this work and they still make religion out of chasing shadows
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Colossians 2:16 (NKJV)
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ
Paul is not declaring the end of food, or the end of drink, or the end of sabbaths in Col 2.
Pagan days being observed in Gal 4 - where observing even one of them is to be condemned.
Bible holy days in Rom 14 - from Lev 23 list of annual holy days - where NO condemnation is allowed for observing any of them.
The point remains.
In Col 2 -- as in Mark 7 the condemnation is against "making stuff up".
Col 2
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God. 20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—
21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”
22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
Exegesis -- take in more than 1 or two snippet verses and we see the full meaning in Col 2.
The point remains.
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ
Paul is not declaring the end of food, or the end of drink, or the end of sabbaths in Col 2.
Pagan days being observed in Gal 4 - where observing even one of them is to be condemned.
Bible holy days in Rom 14 - from Lev 23 list of annual holy days - where NO condemnation is allowed for observing any of them.
The point remains.
In Col 2 -- as in Mark 7 the condemnation is against "making stuff up".
Col 2
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God. 20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—
21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”
22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
Exegesis -- take in more than 1 or two snippet verses and we see the full meaning in Col 2.
The point remains.
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vooks
Active Member
Colossians
Isn't it clear the judgement over food or drinking is about CLEAN and UNCLEAN meats and not the very acts of eating and drinking as only a two-bit primate can read?
Who would JUDGE/BAN/INFLUENCE you against eating and drinking completely?
If Paul is not condemning sabbath in Colossians, then NEITHER is he condemning the annual feasts and the new moons. Was he telling the Colossians to keep these according to commandments of God and not doctrines of men?
Do you keep these godly feasts my brother?
Galatians.
Give me proof pagan and not Jewish days were in question. Look at Galatians 2:17-21,3:1-6,4:21,5:1-5. He even 'gossiped' about how Peter tripped in Antioch and how he rebuked him publicly. The problem of Galatians was Judaism not paganism. You can tell this by the extensive coverage given to Grace/faith vs Law. They went back to the Law,including circumcision....all of them
Romans
Paul was addressing UNITY of believers. A sabbath keeping Jew should not be condemned as weak and neither should he condemns the indifferent Gentile. They had a MIXTURE right there. That's why I don't condemn sabbath keepers, I counsel them in wisdom of God so that their zeal may be according to knowledge. There is no condemnation because the focus is on UNITY. Let the Jews have their way and let the Gentiles have their way
Romans 14:1-3 (KJV)
Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him
I long stopped quarreling my WEAK vegan SDA buddies who are attempting to get to heaven by dieting:smilewinkgrin:
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Bob???? Is this covenant here or in the future
Hebrews 8:10-11 (KJV)
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Do you think EVERYONE knows the Lord?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Well a great many Christians will accept that the Gospel is the New Covenant and that as Christians that is the covenant we are under.
However the Gospel includes "the good news" of Christ's return and all that this includes - so you could argue that there are future aspects of the Gospel promises that are not yet a reality. However the New Covenant includes things like forgiveness of sins, and God is to be our God - we are adopted - so for those who choose to enter into the New Covenant - we have that including the LAW of God written on the heart.
Since this is actually written by Jeremiah in Jer 31:31-33 that moral Law of God has to include what Jeremiah and his readers would have known about - as LAW that defines what sin is.
Paul tells us in Romans 7 and in Romans 3 that this has to include the Ten Commandments.
Which is why I keep bringing up many of the so-called 'Sunday sources" where all of them admit that the moral law of God written on the heart includes the TEN Commandments.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
1. Nothing about "unclean meat" in Lev 11 says anything about "drinking".
2. These are not "commandments of men" but rather the Word of God in Lev 11 - - according to Paul in 2Tim 3:16 -- scripture is of God - not of men.
Colossians 2:16 (NKJV)
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ
Paul is not declaring the end of food, or the end of drink, or the end of sabbaths in Col 2.
The point remains.
I am surprised when every now and then - you get something right.
That is correct - Col 2 is not about condemning the Bible or any Law given in scripture.
It is amazing to me that you figured this out given your history here of misunderstanding or ignoring every text that does not please your bias and preference.
He was telling them not to let people make stuff - imaginary rules .. even if they pertain to eating, or drinking or sabbaths.
This chapter is not about "Paul's effort to find parts of the Bible to ignore".
It is about Paul confronting the same pre-cross problem that Christ confronted in Mark 7 - where people were "making stuff up" -- and in that case it was about "Wheat" - and about "sin remaining on unbaptized fingers" etc. All made up stuff - about what is eaten or drunk -- which included the washing of cups to get the sin off of them etc.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Point is specifically about the pagans turning to Christianity in Gal 4:1-11 then back to paganism "again"
[FONT="]Vs 1-7 – “The Sin problem that WE have” common to ALL mankind – both pagan gentiles and Jews[/FONT]
[FONT="]Vs 8-11 – “The return to paganism problem” specific to gentiles in Galatia[/FONT]
[FONT="]Vs 8-11 “the specific problem of gentile Christians in Galatia: returning to paganism”[/FONT]
[FONT="] Gal 4[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 [/FONT][FONT="]However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves[/FONT][FONT="] to those which by [/FONT][FONT="]nature are no gods[/FONT][FONT="][.[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 [/FONT][FONT="]But now[/FONT][FONT="] that you have come to know God[/FONT][FONT="], or rather to be known by God, how is it that you [/FONT][FONT="]turn back again[/FONT][FONT="] to the weak and worthless elemental things[/FONT][FONT="], to which you desire to be [/FONT][FONT="]enslaved all over again[/FONT][FONT="]?[/FONT]
So then the part that you are "carefully avoiding" in your list of texts above.
As we saw in the book of 1 Corinthians Paul has the "ability" to address more than one issue in a single letter. Some people find this surprising when they get to a letter like Galatians.
You seem to know just what to avoid - when asking a question about the very verses that refute your views.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Turns out that in Romans 14 the verses you carefully ignore
Paul addresses the observance of the Lev 23 annual holy days where "one OBSERVES one ABOVE the others and another OBSERVES all of them... he who OBSERVES the day OBSERVES it for the LORD".
[FONT="]Rom 14[/FONT]
[FONT="] 5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike [/FONT][FONT="]Each person must be fully convinced[/FONT][FONT="] in his own mind. [/FONT]
[FONT="] 6 He ho observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. [/FONT]
[FONT="] 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; [/FONT]
[FONT="] 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. [/FONT]
[FONT="] 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. [/FONT]
[FONT="]10 [/FONT][FONT="]But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. [/FONT]
Paul forbids the practice of condemning those who are observing those Lev 23 annual holy days in Rom 14.
Paul himself was just such an "observer".
[FONT="]Acts 21[/FONT][FONT="]
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law
Acts 24
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets
Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.;
Acts 26
Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come; 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles;
Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT]
In Romans 14 the Jew is the strong in faith who is not vegetarian out of fear of eating meat sacrificed to idols - rather it is the gentile who is weak.
The strong in faith is listed first - Jews were not vegetarians - Passover and many other animal sacrifices would have prevented it. In the NT it is the new christian gentiles that are "WEAK" believing that food offered to idols is stained by false gods.
Romans 14.
[FONT="]2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. [/FONT]
But Jews know that there is no such thing as a false god. Only ONE true God.
[FONT="]1Cor 10[/FONT][FONT="]
18 Look at the nation Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar?
19 What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything?
20 No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons.
21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.[/FONT]
[FONT="]1 Cor 8[/FONT]
[FONT="]5 [/FONT][FONT="]For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 [/FONT][FONT="]But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.[/FONT][FONT="]
7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.
9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols?
11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.
12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble[/FONT]
Paul says he will (like those new convert gentiles with weak consciences ) choose to be vegetarian if that is what it takes to not to wound their weak gentile former-pagan consciences regarding meat that might have been offered to idols.
As for observing days - Paul says neither one is weak in Rom 14. But IF we follow the same pattern then the first is strong and the second case weak and so in Rom 14 the first case is "observing one day above another" and the second case is "observing every day".
I am surprised you want to go there.
in Christ,
Bob
vooks
Active Member
Eating and drinking is a SUMMARY phrase for dietary rules as illustrated by this description of the OT.
Hebrews 9:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Equivocation is your forte. They are the Word of God but you claim that he was overly concerned about REGULATIONS of men over the Word of God such as sabbath no New moon. In other words, Paul's problem is not observance of these but imposition of man-made rules by some of them
Point remains even the brain dead can tell NOBODY would forbid you from eating or drinking. So whoever judged them over eating and drinking was NOT forbidding eating but somebody (a Jew of course) would attempt to impose their kosher ways on the Gentiles. But the same person could impose or influence an indifferent Gentiles to esteem sabbath above other days, and Paul easily dispenses with this. So just because he is not declaring end of one of the mentioned don't mean he is not declaring end of the others
Repeat:
if I succumbed to a Jew judging me over eating and drinking, I'd still be eating and drinking. I'd only abstain from specific foods. If I succumb to a Jew judging me over Passover and Tabernacle, I'd start observing the feast whereas previously I was indifferent to the days. When Paul assures me not to succumb to judgement on Passover, I'd STOP observing it. Iand if Paul assured me not to succumb to judgement on diet, I'd not STOP eating, I'd resume eating what I had stopped.
So Paul assurances sees me reSTARTING one thing while STOPPING the other. BobRyan thinks because I can't stop one,I can't possibly stop the other. Horrible logic
Am not surprised you still don't get it.
It is CLEAR feast days,new moons and sabbaths refer to Torah rites.
Follow through your thought process.
Paul is telling them to IGNORE man-made rules over these and instead keep them according to the commandment of God. In other words, Paul is indifferent to their observing these but offended by the artificial rules imposed on their observance.
This argument perfectly captures Paul endorsing sabbath and SDAs can pop champagne:smilewinkgrin:
Unfortunately, it also captures Paul endorsing OTHER Jewish feasts as well which makes BobRyan and his godess EGW a hypocrite for keeping sabbath while discarding the rest of the endorsed feasts:tonofbricks:
BobRyan, you need to practice critical thinking once in a while an uphill task for an Adventist who has to subject every thought and understanding of scriptures to the infallible Ellen White writings.
If you found believers attempting to observe the annual and monthly Jewish feasts as perfectly as they can but say with by carrying a heavy cross on these days as taught them by men, what would you do?
A. Advise them to keep on at it but to drop the heavy cross
B. Downplay the significance of these feasts by reminding them they are 'shadows' and the real deal is Christ
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We are under the new covenant....of His blood. Hebrews 8 and Jer.31 are in the future. After those days
ZECH.9 [9] Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.[10] And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.[11] As for thee also, BY THE BLOOD OF THY COVENANT I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water
Verse 9 definately prophecies of the coming Jesus. Verse 11, Jesus is called the blood of thy covenant
HEBREWS 12 [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,[24] And to Jesus THE MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT, AND TO THE BLOOD of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
New covenant...blood
LUKE 22 [19] And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. [20] Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, THIS CUP IS THE NEW TESTAMENT IN MY BLOOD, which is shed for you.
New testament...blood
HEBREWS 9 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALS
RDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.old covenant...blood of goats
HEBREWS 10 [1] For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[4] FOR IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.[8] Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.
old testament...blood of bulls and goats; the shadow of Christ
He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
JOHN 6 [53] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. [54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. [55] For MY FLESH IS MEAT INDEED, and MY BLOOD IS DRINK INDEED.
And theres the 2nd
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Everyone claims to be under the New Covenant -- but I think you are the first to claim that the Luke 22:20 New Covenant is not the Hebrews 8 New Covenant.
If you redefine the same term every time you see it in the Bible - you get a lot of odd one-off doctrine results.
I don't use that method.
in Christ,
Bob
HEBREWS 8 [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS
Bob. If God put His law in our mind already, dont ya know that we would be keeping that law perfectly. And yet we are not
Malachi 2:9 (KJV)
9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.
Vooks has made a good point
vooks
Active Member
BobRyan you are not a wise man.
Galatians 4:1-3 (KJV)
Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Was Paul a pagan before he met Christ?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Colossians 2:16 (NKJV)
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ
Paul is not declaring the end of food, or the end of drink, or the end of sabbaths in Col 2.
Pagan days being observed in Gal 4 - where observing even one of them is to be condemned.
Bible holy days in Rom 14 - from Lev 23 list of annual holy days - where NO condemnation is allowed for observing any of them.
The point remains.
In Col 2 -- as in Mark 7 the condemnation is against "making stuff up".
Col 2
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God. 20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—
21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”
22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
Exegesis -- take in more than 1 or two snippet verses and we see the full meaning in Col 2.
So then once again -- I will be going with "the actual Bible" on this one.
No command in Col 2 to stop eating... no command in Col 2 to stop drinking. Not even a command to stop observing the sabbaths.
Rather a command to refuse submit to "commandments of men".
Those who "imagine" that the Bible is the "commandments of men" simply don't read.
[FONT="]=================================================[/FONT]
[FONT="]Bible texts both NT and OT about God's Commandments - Showing that the TEN Commandments are assigned the title "in scripture" as being "Commandments of God" -- and as also being "The Word of God"[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 Commandments are [/FONT]
[FONT="]Commandments of God[/FONT][FONT="]Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT="]Law of God ; Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT="]Word of God Mark 7:13[/FONT]
[FONT="]Commandment of GodMark 7:6-13[/FONT]
[FONT="]NT ScriptureJames 2:8[/FONT]
[FONT="]NT Law James 2:9-11[/FONT]
[FONT="]NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10[/FONT]
[FONT="]Mark 7[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 For laying aside the commandment of God,ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.[/FONT]
[FONT="]That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.[/FONT]
[FONT="] The elders consisting of scrib es and ph arise es are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium . [/FONT]
[FONT="]Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3) [/FONT]
[FONT="]Matt 19[/FONT]
[FONT="]And someone came to Him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?17 And He said to him, Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.18 Then he *said to Him, Which ones?And Jesus said,[/FONT]
[FONT="]You shall not commit murder;[/FONT]
[FONT="]You shall not commit adultery[/FONT][FONT="];[/FONT]
[FONT="]You shall not steal;[/FONT]
[FONT="]You shall not bear false witness;[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 Honor your father and mother;[/FONT]
[FONT="]and[/FONT]
[FONT="]You shall love your neighbor as yourself.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Matt 5[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Note that in 1John 5 - John contrasts "LOVE", to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God".[/FONT]
[FONT="]Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.[/FONT]
[FONT="]1 John 5[/FONT]
[FONT="]"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.[/FONT]
[FONT="]2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3[/FONT]
Colossians 2:16 (NKJV)
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ
Paul is not declaring the end of food, or the end of drink, or the end of sabbaths in Col 2.
Pagan days being observed in Gal 4 - where observing even one of them is to be condemned.
Bible holy days in Rom 14 - from Lev 23 list of annual holy days - where NO condemnation is allowed for observing any of them.
The point remains.
In Col 2 -- as in Mark 7 the condemnation is against "making stuff up".
Col 2
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God. 20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—
21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”
22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
Exegesis -- take in more than 1 or two snippet verses and we see the full meaning in Col 2.
So then once again -- I will be going with "the actual Bible" on this one.
No command in Col 2 to stop eating... no command in Col 2 to stop drinking. Not even a command to stop observing the sabbaths.
Rather a command to refuse submit to "commandments of men".
Those who "imagine" that the Bible is the "commandments of men" simply don't read.
[FONT="]=================================================[/FONT]
[FONT="]Bible texts both NT and OT about God's Commandments - Showing that the TEN Commandments are assigned the title "in scripture" as being "Commandments of God" -- and as also being "The Word of God"[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 Commandments are [/FONT]
[FONT="]Commandments of God[/FONT][FONT="]Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT="]Law of God ; Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT="]Word of God Mark 7:13[/FONT]
[FONT="]Commandment of GodMark 7:6-13[/FONT]
[FONT="]NT ScriptureJames 2:8[/FONT]
[FONT="]NT Law James 2:9-11[/FONT]
[FONT="]NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10[/FONT]
[FONT="]Mark 7[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 For laying aside the commandment of God,ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.[/FONT]
[FONT="]That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.[/FONT]
[FONT="] The elders consisting of scrib es and ph arise es are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium . [/FONT]
[FONT="]Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3) [/FONT]
[FONT="]Matt 19[/FONT]
[FONT="]And someone came to Him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?17 And He said to him, Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.18 Then he *said to Him, Which ones?And Jesus said,[/FONT]
[FONT="]You shall not commit murder;[/FONT]
[FONT="]You shall not commit adultery[/FONT][FONT="];[/FONT]
[FONT="]You shall not steal;[/FONT]
[FONT="]You shall not bear false witness;[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 Honor your father and mother;[/FONT]
[FONT="]and[/FONT]
[FONT="]You shall love your neighbor as yourself.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Matt 5[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Note that in 1John 5 - John contrasts "LOVE", to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God".[/FONT]
[FONT="]Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.[/FONT]
[FONT="]1 John 5[/FONT]
[FONT="]"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.[/FONT]
[FONT="]2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3[/FONT]
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Your question was answered before you asked it - read the post please.
[FONT="]Vs 1-7 – “The Sin problem that WE have” common to ALL mankind – both pagan gentiles and Jews[/FONT]
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I leave it to you to argue against the New Covenant - I don't know that anyone else here is doing that.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Colossians 2:16 (NKJV)
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ
Paul is not declaring the end of food, or the end of drink, or the end of sabbaths in Col 2.
Pagan days being observed in Gal 4 - where observing even one of them is to be condemned.
Bible holy days in Rom 14 - from Lev 23 list of annual holy days - where NO condemnation is allowed for observing any of them.
The point remains.
In Col 2 -- as in Mark 7 the condemnation is against "making stuff up".
Col 2
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God. 20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—
21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”
22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
Exegesis -- take in more than 1 or two snippet verses and we see the full meaning in Col 2.
So then once again -- I will be going with "the actual Bible" on this one.
No command in Col 2 to stop eating... no command in Col 2 to stop drinking. Not even a command to stop observing the sabbaths.
Rather a command to refuse submit to "commandments of men".
Those who "imagine" that the Bible is the "commandments of men" simply don't read.
[FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]Mark 7[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 For laying aside the commandment of God,ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.[/FONT]
[FONT="]That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
So while I do not argue for the continuation of animal sacrifices or the ceremonial law - you cannot get that 'ending' from Col 2.
Rather you have to go to Heb 10 or the like. Col 2 is specifically about the "commandments of man" -- it is about man-made-traditions.
Just as Christ also condemns that in Mark 7 when ALL the ceremonial laws are in full force!!
The point remains.
Irrefutable.
in Christ,
Bob