The Context of the Parenthesis Church

[OldRegular]

You missed it!
Post 139 and 147.

The answer is seen in the question who received the payment for the sins of mankind? We received the benefit of the payment but who required the payment?

Post #139

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

As not to seem unbiased, A.T. Robertson says about this verse:

I like the way he put that:
"The propitiation by Christ provides for salvation for all (Heb_2:9) if they will only be reconciled with God."

Propitiation means satisfaction in a legal sense. Christ legally satisfied the demands of God with his shed blood that provision of salvation for all had been made.
God received the payment. God's demands were met.

Post #147

Post 139 just answered it. God demanded payment for man's sin, Christ paid that price and became the Propitiation for sin.

God demands payment to restore the earth from its curse. That payment will be His wrath coming in the judgments upon the earth, just as Christ blood was the payment, Propitian that is satisfaction for sin.

Post #139 by DHK says nothing about the restoration of the earth that I see/ Post #147 says Nothing!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And the truth comes out, the church was plan B or maybe even C.

Even though Rev. 13:8 says that the lamb was slain BEFORE the foundation of the World. The cross and the church were always in God's plan.

Dont forget they also were a failure......'The bride of Christ a FAILURE!!!'

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have a family member that actually spent good hard earned money to take a DNA test to see if they had jewish blood, folks are out there makin good money off the RR crowd for shure.

Oh my Lord......really?!? So what did this cousin find out? :laugh:

 

[Darrell C]

I don't know who BR is but the question has not been answered.

BR is the guy who's posts are the same in every thread, every topic, every board...

Broken Record.

Don't blame me if Revelation is beyond your ability to comprehend!

Well, I'll admit, when we actually include everything it records it does tend to become a little complicated, but not something that cannot come to be understood.

More complicated than an eschatology that just takes what confuses away.

You simply ignore it. You certainly have not accounted for it. The Revelation of GOD is to be taken in its entirety, not splintered as you people do!

Well, my view still has the thousand years that the Holy Spirit had John record. It still has the three resurrections. It still has Christ's Return in it's proper place. It still has seven years.

Oh, and it's actually...still Prophecy.

And my view is splintered? lol

You are dancing around, shuffling your feet but you will not name a person. Saying it is the same person who received payment for our sins is not an answer because there are different views on that!

Here is another person that receives payment:


Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


I don't know, maybe you didn't get you theology from the Pope. I'm beginning to think maybe...the History Channel, perhaps?

Another thread where what, four or five pages wasted.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

What do you consider a good one, one full of exuberant dispys? .....ah, no thanks! If necessary, perhaps a good Presbyterian Church or Reformed Baptist Church......but an independent Dispy church ....I will pass, thank you. But I am looking to establish a Great Mainstream Primitive Baptist church in Northern NJ....that would be paramount!!!:thumbs:

You're going to start a Church?

I can suggest a slogan:

"Primitive...as you've never seen it!"




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Ask any Rapture Ready dispensationalist who GOD favors, Jew or Christian. You might be surprised how many will say Jew. And this in spite of the fact that Jesus Christ died for the true believers, the Saints, the Christian!

Because you always derail every topic to Darby, Dispensationalism (which apparently you are not very familiar with, seeing there are a number of different dispensational views, many of their doctrines accepted by a number of groups not called dispensational), and Deflection...you miss out on what the other members here actually believe about Israel.

For the record, I consistently teach that Israel is, and always have been a secular people in need of Messiah. They were not "saved" in the Old Testament through the Religion of Judaism, nor were they eternally redeemed through the First Covenant (Covenant of Law). When they died in the Economy, they did not go to Heaven to be with the Lord, but were consigned to Sheol, called Hades by the Lord with the contemporary equivalent. When Christ came, this Nation, created to be the Old Testament type of the Church, rejected Christ. He came unto His Own and His Own...received Him not.

For this reason God has withdrawn, so to speak, His provisional blessings of "rest," just as He has done numerous times in the past, in which case Israel suffered tribulation. But among His People Israel...He has always maintained a Remnant.

The faithful Remnant today, just as the faithful of the Gentiles, are born again believers. What Israel did not foresee, because their blindness did not permit them, was that God's Redemptive Plan has always provided for all who are faithful in obedience to His Word.

Why do you think Israel was created in the first place?

Many confuse Israel as being "chosen," when in fact Israel was created.

This is just as true with the Church, the Body of Christ: she is a created people who, unlike the Nation of Israel, has been born again through the Eternal Indwelling of God, an indwelling promised in the Old Testament Economies.

The nation Israel was not the endgame in Redemption, the Body of Christ was. There will be One Shepherd, and One Fold, and those Sheep will be gathered in the Tribulation, which will drive many to faith in Christ.

And this in spite of the fact that Jesus Christ died for the true believers, the Saints, the Christian!

There were no Christians prior to Pentecost.

Not understanding that is why the Doctrinal Forums resemble the wasteland of the Wilderness in understanding and obedience, because the magnitude of the Work of Christ is not properly understood.

This is why we have people like you, BR, advocating self and your theology...instead of glorifying Christ and teaching men to come to trust Him. It is because you do not grasp the desperate situation of mankind's condition, because you cannot see it in yourself.

I have asked that question on this BB in the past and it is impossible to get an answer.

The truth is that you create false arguments so you can fill in the answers you want to impose in every topic, every thread, every board.

Quote one Dispensationalist that states "God favors Jews."

Just one, so you can prove you are not creating falsehoods so your doctrine has a platform.

Just one.

Just as difficult as getting them to concede the pre-trib-Rapture Ready dispensationalist doctrine calls the Church a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for national Israel.

God does not have a "program for Israel," God has a program for Mankind.

You need to get on board with that Program, that you might be of some eternal value in the battle we face. You need to come to understand who the enemy is, instead of battling flesh and blood, your own not the least of your problem.

Fortunately two brave souls, blessedwife138 and HankD told of their training or the "parenthesis Church" would still be in Limbo.

Still in limbo? lol

You mean purgatory, perhaps?

There is a lot of bad teaching out there, you being a prime example of that.

God's Redemptive Plan is right on track, as it has always been. Progressive revelation maintains a consistency throughout the Record of Scripture, and if we will but see that, our understanding will benefit.

blessedwife318 has been harassed ever since by DC!

More like..."had her chain yanked."

And she has done a much better job than you at trying to respond to the points and questions posed.

But then, women have had to be the backbone of a number of fellowships and Christian Communities for years...


God bless.

 

[revmwc]

So it is the earth that is punished by the Great Tribulation to make propitiation for the earth's sin. And just how did the earth sin?

Wrong it is unregenerate men who pay the price in the Great Tribulation in order that the curse is removed. The Tribulation begins with all unregenerate humans. A multitude will be saved by the witness of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses as well as the 2 witness in the last half of the Tribulation. We see those who are beheaded for Christ during the O.T. and N.T. periods in Revelation 6:9-11 asking when those who took their blood will be judged and avenged,
9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
They must wait this little season that is the 7years of the Tribulation until all the Tribulation Saints who will be martyred have be fulfilled.

We see them avenged in Revelation 19:2 "For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

God seals the 144,000 so that they will not died during this time, He raises up the two witnesses and those in the Tribulation have the witness of the church prior to her removal that will lead people to Salvation.
God knows exactly how many and who will trust Christ in this dispensation of Grace and in the Tribulation. Just as He knew who would trust Christ in the O.T. and those born during the Kingdom age. Since God foreknew who would be saved He predestinated them to be adopted.

The Kingdom comes to a restored earth with all creation back to Pre-Fall state. The Tribulation accomplishes the Redwmption or Restoration of the Earth. The terms of Redemption in the seven sealed book being opened by the Kinsman redeemer and God the Father is satisfied with the meeting (payment) of the terms of Redemption of the Lost Possession.

Prior to the Kingdom and at Christ second coming unbelievers are slain as seen in Revelation 19:21 "And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."
We see where they are for the 1000 year reign, Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." They were in hell until the 1000 years is over.

During the Kingdom we see this fulfilled:

Isaiah 11:1-10,

1 "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Who is the stem of Jesse none other than the Lord Jesus Christ.He will be on the throne in Jerusalem, all creation is restored and the Tribulation was the payment of the redemption price, just as the Kinsman redeemer laws of Israel required payment. Just as God required payment for our sins so too must the terms of redemption for the possession be met. Then the Kingdom as Described by Isaiah comes into fruition. With Christ reigning as the root or stem of Jesse.

 

[Darrell C]

And Christ died for those given to him by the Father....not by race or any holy DNA. Those selected from before the foundations of time to be the sons and daughters of the most high. And may i add, none of them will ever be lost to Him....or left behind. :jesus:

Just not a Biblically sound statement.

It is very clear that when Christ returns...believers are left behind.

We see that in both Old Testament as well as New Testament Prophecy, and specifically taught by Christ Himself.


Again:


Luke 17:30-37

King James Version (KJV)

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


The question you need to answer is "Why is the thousand years in Revelation 20 not a thousand years?"

He is not asking about the cross. The claim was made that the earth itself STILL needs to be redeemed and that the tribulation is the price paid to redeem the earth. So far there has been no answer as to who needs to be paid or the fact that if that is true why would the earth itself have to pay the price. The idea that the earth must redeem itself is wrong in light of what Christ has done on the cross. It violates the very fact that It Is Finished.

That the earth needs to be redeemed is simply a Basic Biblical Principle:


Genesis 3:17-18

King James Version (KJV)

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;


Romans 8:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.



And when we look at the description given concerning the earth in the Old Testament Promise, we see that the earth will undergo a reformation.

And I believe that is what the Lord speaks about here:


Matthew 19:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

So far there has been no answer as to who needs to be paid or the fact that if that is true why would the earth itself have to pay the price.

There has been answer. That you did not see it or that you did not accept it, as BR did not, doesn't mean it has not been answered, and answered well.

The Tribulation will deliver the wages of sin in the most spectacular fashion ever seen on this earth in a Day of the Lord event. It will by far surpass the events of the Old Testament, such as Israel's being taken into captivity or any time they were conquered by men.

And I would need to see you quote someone saying it is the earth paying the price, I didn't see that in what he said.

The idea that the earth must redeem itself is wrong in light of what Christ has done on the cross.

Christ is always the Redeemer, another Basic Bible Principle, and the Tribulation will see the earth redeemed:


Revelation 11:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Romans 8:19-22

King James Version (KJV)

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

It violates the very fact that It Is Finished

The means is finished, but we don't see fulfillment until we are bodily redeemed. This includes Creation, the physical Universe, which will be made new, even as our bodies are.

I think it's interesting that in the thread that has been revived from 2011, that no one in the dispensation camp denied the fact that Darby was the father of dispensationalism or the idea of a 'parenthesis' church as an out cropping of his idea. A little honesty about the history and position goes a long way.

And trying to debate current antagonists does as well.

Darby was not the "father" of either Dispensationalism or a Pre-Trib Rapture. Both can be understood as taught by Paul in the First century, and the concept of "Dispensationalism" going back even further:


Hebrews 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


Hebrews 4:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.


Do you understand how these are Biblically dispensational?

It is nonsense to say that the so-called Great Seven Year Tribulation is payment for redemption of the earth.

If you can come to understand...


Romans 6:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


...then, and only then...will you understand the payment many receive in the Tribulation.

So it is the earth that is punished by the Great Tribulation to make propitiation for the earth's sin. And just how did the earth sin?

No, the earth will be born again.

It did not sin, it came under the curse through sin, which will be remedied in a very physical manner through the Tribulation.

Think of it like a body having cancer removed.

Dont forget they also were a failure......'The bride of Christ a FAILURE!!!'

Sometimes, sometimes...


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by revmwc View Post
No I don't, the church was in God's plan before man was ever created.

And the truth comes out, the church was plan B or maybe even C.

How do you arrive at that from what he states here?

He is correct, the Church has always been the Redemptive Plan of God:


Genesis 3:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.



Genesis 28:13-15

King James Version (KJV)

13 And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.


Romans 9:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.



Galatians 3:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Even though Rev. 13:8 says that the lamb was slain BEFORE the foundation of the World. The cross and the church were always in God's plan.

This...


Revelation 13:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


...does not imply Christ went to the Cross before the world was formed, which is clearly shown in Scripture to have a particular time when it was to take place.

There is appoint in time when God manifested in human flesh and went to a very real death in that body:


Philippians 2:5-10

King James Version (KJV)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;


We don't spiritualize Scripture and create a false event which we know took place almost 2,000 years ago, not before the world was formed. It was God's Plan before the world was formed, but implemented nearly 2,000 years ago, as History attests.

The Glory of God was veiled in human flesh, and God did indeed...provide Himself a lamb.


Hebrews 10:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;



God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

It is nonsense to say that the so-called Great Seven Year Tribulation is payment for redemption of the earth.

Daniel's Seventieth Week will be a seven year period even as the first 69 were.

Simple math.

Very well said blessedwife318. You see how much nonsense these people will spout in an attempt to defend the indefensible!

It's very easy to refute false arguments created to supply a platform for one's doctrine.

The false teachers are easily identified because they have no answer to the holes in their doctrine and the conflict with Scripture that is pointed out.


God bless.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Just not a Biblically sound statement.

It is very clear that when Christ returns...believers are left behind.

We see that in both Old Testament as well as New Testament Prophecy, and specifically taught by Christ Himself.


Again:


Luke 17:30-37

King James Version (KJV)

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


The question you need to answer is "Why is the thousand years in Revelation 20 not a thousand years?"





That the earth needs to be redeemed is simply a Basic Biblical Principle:


Genesis 3:17-18

King James Version (KJV)

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;


Romans 8:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.



And when we look at the description given concerning the earth in the Old Testament Promise, we see that the earth will undergo a reformation.

And I believe that is what the Lord speaks about here:


Matthew 19:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.




There has been answer. That you did not see it or that you did not accept it, as BR did not, doesn't mean it has not been answered, and answered well.

The Tribulation will deliver the wages of sin in the most spectacular fashion ever seen on this earth in a Day of the Lord event. It will by far surpass the events of the Old Testament, such as Israel's being taken into captivity or any time they were conquered by men.

And I would need to see you quote someone saying it is the earth paying the price, I didn't see that in what he said.




Christ is always the Redeemer, another Basic Bible Principle, and the Tribulation will see the earth redeemed:


Revelation 11:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Romans 8:19-22

King James Version (KJV)

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.






The means is finished, but we don't see fulfillment until we are bodily redeemed. This includes Creation, the physical Universe, which will be made new, even as our bodies are.




And trying to debate current antagonists does as well.

Darby was not the "father" of either Dispensationalism or a Pre-Trib Rapture. Both can be understood as taught by Paul in the First century, and the concept of "Dispensationalism" going back even further:


Hebrews 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


Hebrews 4:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.


Do you understand how these are Biblically dispensational?




If you can come to understand...


Romans 6:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


...then, and only then...will you understand the payment many receive in the Tribulation.




No, the earth will be born again.

It did not sin, it came under the curse through sin, which will be remedied in a very physical manner through the Tribulation.

Think of it like a body having cancer removed.





Sometimes, sometimes...


God bless.

Where do you get this nonsence.....talk about being brainwashed.........you are really text book.... :laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

Where do you get this nonsence.....talk about being brainwashed.........you are really text book.... :laugh:

Windy also!:thumbs:

 

[OldRegular]

Dont forget they also were a failure......'The bride of Christ a FAILURE!!!'

That is what is so asinine!

Dispensationalism denies that the Church is included in prophecy. Rather, the claim is made that Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic kingdom for the Jews, that they rejected Him, and that He established the Church instead [Herman Hoyt, a dispensationalist, in The Millennium, Four Viewpoints, by Clouse, pages 84-88]. The Church is often referred to as the ‘mystery parenthesis’ form of the Kingdom; mystery in that there is no prophecy in the Old Testament regarding the Church and parenthesis in that God found it necessary to interrupt His program for the Jews because their leaders rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah and He was unable to establish the Messianic kingdom.
{http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=80260}

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
It is nonsense to say that the so-called Great Seven Year Tribulation is payment for redemption of the earth.

Daniel's Seventieth Week will be a seven year period even as the first 69 were.

Simple math.

I don't know how Daniel got here but how does seven days become seven years in the literalism of pre-tribbers or does that title give you special dispensation-:laugh:-to interpret Scripture to suit Darby's whim? And then how does the literal hermeneutic enable you to put a 2500+ years and counting between the mid part of the 70th week and the whenever?-:laugh:-

 

[OldRegular]

Because you always derail every topic to Darby, Dispensationalism (which apparently you are not very familiar with, seeing there are a number of different dispensational views, many of their doctrines accepted by a number of groups not called dispensational), and Deflection...you miss out on what the other members here actually believe about Israel.

For the record, I consistently teach that Israel is, and always have been a secular people in need of Messiah. They were not "saved" in the Old Testament through the Religion of Judaism, nor were they eternally redeemed through the First Covenant (Covenant of Law). When they died in the Economy, they did not go to Heaven to be with the Lord, but were consigned to Sheol, called Hades by the Lord with the contemporary equivalent. When Christ came, this Nation, created to be the Old Testament type of the Church, rejected Christ. He came unto His Own and His Own...received Him not.

For this reason God has withdrawn, so to speak, His provisional blessings of "rest," just as He has done numerous times in the past, in which case Israel suffered tribulation. But among His People Israel...He has always maintained a Remnant.

The faithful Remnant today, just as the faithful of the Gentiles, are born again believers. What Israel did not foresee, because their blindness did not permit them, was that God's Redemptive Plan has always provided for all who are faithful in obedience to His Word.

Why do you think Israel was created in the first place?

Many confuse Israel as being "chosen," when in fact Israel was created.

This is just as true with the Church, the Body of Christ: she is a created people who, unlike the Nation of Israel, has been born again through the Eternal Indwelling of God, an indwelling promised in the Old Testament Economies.

The nation Israel was not the endgame in Redemption, the Body of Christ was. There will be One Shepherd, and One Fold, and those Sheep will be gathered in the Tribulation, which will drive many to faith in Christ.



There were no Christians prior to Pentecost.

Not understanding that is why the Doctrinal Forums resemble the wasteland of the Wilderness in understanding and obedience, because the magnitude of the Work of Christ is not properly understood.

This is why we have people like you, BR, advocating self and your theology...instead of glorifying Christ and teaching men to come to trust Him. It is because you do not grasp the desperate situation of mankind's condition, because you cannot see it in yourself.




The truth is that you create false arguments so you can fill in the answers you want to impose in every topic, every thread, every board.

Quote one Dispensationalist that states "God favors Jews."

Just one, so you can prove you are not creating falsehoods so your doctrine has a platform.

Just one.




God does not have a "program for Israel," God has a program for Mankind.

You need to get on board with that Program, that you might be of some eternal value in the battle we face. You need to come to understand who the enemy is, instead of battling flesh and blood, your own not the least of your problem.




Still in limbo? lol

You mean purgatory, perhaps?

There is a lot of bad teaching out there, you being a prime example of that.

God's Redemptive Plan is right on track, as it has always been. Progressive revelation maintains a consistency throughout the Record of Scripture, and if we will but see that, our understanding will benefit.




More like..."had her chain yanked."

And she has done a much better job than you at trying to respond to the points and questions posed.

But then, women have had to be the backbone of a number of fellowships and Christian Communities for years...


God bless.

Yeah, very windy, but you still didn't answer the question. No one will some simply show by their comments!

 

[Darrell C]

Where do you get this nonsence.....talk about being brainwashed.........you are really text book....

Same place I get that we are not to forsake the assembling of the brethren and that persecuting the Church is persecuting Jesus Christ: the Bible.

Check it out.

And if you can muster the effort, try actually reading what the posts states, and then, if you are not overly slothful, you can point out which parts of it is nonsense.

Windy also!

Yup.

That is what is so asinine!

James 3:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Originally Posted by OldRegular
It is nonsense to say that the so-called Great Seven Year Tribulation is payment for redemption of the earth.[/quote[



I don't know how Daniel got here but how does seven days become seven years in the literalism of pre-tribbers or does that title give you special dispensation-:laugh:-to interpret Scripture to suit Darby's whim? And then how does the literal hermeneutic enable you to put a 2500+ years and counting between the mid part of the 70th week and the whenever?-:laugh:-

I am not the hyper-literalist, lol.

I carefully seek to let Scripture define itself with Scripture.

And there is no "seven days" involved in this, we are speaking about seventy shabuwa`:


Daniel 9:24

King James Version (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

And then how does the literal hermeneutic enable you to put a 2500+ years and counting between the mid part of the 70th week and the whenever?-:

It's really very simple: if Prophecy is not fulfilled as Christ teaches it will be...


Matthew 5:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


...then we know we have a future fulfillment to come.

Just as there was, despite the fact that Antiochus Epiphanes was a fulfillment of Daniel, a future event to come after that fulfillment:


Matthew 24:14-16

King James Version (KJV)

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Christ did not teach your doctrine, by which you say...

And then how does the literal hermeneutic enable you to put a 2500+ years and counting between the mid part of the 70th week and the whenever?-:

...now did He?

He taught a future fulfillment despite partial fulfillment in Daniel's day.

Yeah, very windy, but you still didn't answer the question. No one will some simply show by their comments!

This...

Originally Posted by OldRegular View Post

Ask any Rapture Ready dispensationalist who GOD favors, Jew or Christian. You might be surprised how many will say Jew. And this in spite of the fact that Jesus Christ died for the true believers, the Saints, the Christian!

...is a question? lol

I did not know questions were ended in !


What I did, BR, is address your statement, which was not a question, but more of the same drivel you constantly spam in every thread.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I appreciate you guys making this so easy. Have a busy day today so the potshots really help out.


God bless.

 

[DHK]

It is nonsense to say that the so-called Great Seven Year Tribulation is payment for redemption of the earth.

I didn't say it was.
The curse on the earth came when Adam sinned. When Christ paid the penalty for our sin the curse on man was partially lifted in that he gave salvation to all who believe. It will be fully lifted at his second coming when we receive our glorified bodied, and by the second advent when the Jews are restored in the Millennial Kingdom. The Tribulation is not a payment. The Tribulation is a judgment and the salvation of the Jews, a fulfillment of OT promises. The payment was at the cross not to be fulfilled until after the Tribulation. The promises of that fulfillment are plenty in Isaiah and many other OT scriptures.

The Scriptures I gave you in Romans 8 alone should be sufficient:

Consider the entire passage:
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Verse 18 tells us that something much greater still lies ahead--a glory that cannot be compared with this present time.

Consider vs. 19 in the ESV
Rom 8:19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
--All of God's creation is eagerly looking the Coming of Christ, along with the saints of God from heaven. God's creation is looking toward the Second Coming.

vs. 20 God's creation was subject to vanity--a reference back to the fall. It will be restored. The curse will be lifted.

vs. 21. The creature itself shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption.
This will only happen when Christ comes to set up his Kingdom.
No more let sins and sorrows grow
Nor thorns infest the ground
He comes to make
His blessings flow

22. We know that his whole creation groans and travails in pain until now.
But there is coming a time when it won't. It will be redeemed.
As we will be fully redeemed. We wait for the redemption of our bodies.
The curse will be fully lifted when Christ comes to set up his Millennial Kingdom and rules with a rod of iron from the throne of David for a thousand years.

He rules the world with truth and grace
And makes the nations prove
The glories of His righteousness
And wonders of His love

--That is not now. It will be in the Millennial Kingdom.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
It is nonsense to say that the so-called Great Seven Year Tribulation is payment for redemption of the earth.

I didn't say it was.

I know that but others did and then repeatedly refuse to say who received payment!

 

[blessedwife318]

So in the O.T. with the sroll of redemption for a partial of land the Kinsman redeemer would already know what the terms were without opening the seals?

Or would he open the seals and see the requirement then make the payment.
You see the requirement revealed by opening the six seals but the seven couldn't be opened until the payment began.

You see the Tribulation is just that the redeeming of the lost possession of mankind that is earth and all that was created for this earth. Our Kinsman redeemer Jesus is meeting the terms. The curse requires judgment upon all of unsaved mankind upon the earth.
The Ark proved God would judge all those unbelievers with the flood. Yet 8 were saved, the number 8 representing a new beginning.

He also proved how He judges at Sodom and Gommorah, where the redeemed that is lot, his wife and two daughters were snatched out by the angels.

God protected all those Jews in Egypt from the curse of the first born if they were covered by the blood.

Beautiful types of the Snatching away of the bride before the judgment came upon the earth.

I guess most don't realize Christ must redeem all of creation and the Tribulation period is that price being paid. He came first to redeem mankind. Before He returns He must redeem the earth for the Kingdom.

I guess most don't realize Christ must redeem all of creation and the Tribulation period is that price being paid. He came first to redeem mankind. Before He returns He must redeem the earth for the Kingdom.

Since this is the claim that has gotten lost in the shuffle and refusing to be answered I thought I would repost it.

So who is the price being paid to? And why does the earth have to pay its own price to be redeemed?
Can anyone answer these questions instead of shuffling around?