The Children whom God hath given me

[SovereignGrace]

Christ satisfied the requirement or penalty or wages for sin.

Correct, for the sheep. The death they should have tasted, He took in their stead. He paid their penalty for them. That is why they will not taste eternal torment in the lake of fire.

What are/is the wages/penalty for sin?

Death. That is why all peoples will die naturally. That is why the sheep will never taste the second death. The goats go to hell due to their unbelief and Christ not paying their tab.

Death, Christ died on the cross and appeased God's requirements for sins.

Exactly. He took the beating, mocking, spitting, ripping the beard from His face, the spikes in His wrists and feet, and died in our stead. This satisfied God's wrath.

What condemns a person to the Lake of Fire?

Sin.

John 3:18, those who "believe not are condemned already" where in that statement by Jesus do you see that man is condemned because of sin?

If God had not sent Christ to die, all of us would have been condemned to hell; every blasted one of us. God chose a number that no one can number and gave them to Jesus, and He bore their sins and nailed them to the cross in His flesh. Those sins He took were the sheep's sins only.

The Lamb's book of life is consulted for all those who enter into the New Jerusalem, the New Heaven and earth. How is on entered into the Lamb's book of life, John 3:18 "those believe are not condemned"

Their names were written therein from the creation of the world.

That same book is consulted at the Great White Throne Judgment,

Same book is checked for those who are condemned to the Lake of Fire and their names are not written in the Lamb's book of life because of not believing in the Only Begotten Son of God.

Those who taste the second death do so because of their sins. Because their names were never written in the Lamb's Book of Life to begin with.

God is satisfied appeased with the payment of Christ blood shed for mankind. The unbelievers is sentenced to the Lake of Fire because of unbelief that is rejecting the free gift of Grace by refusing to have Faith in Christ.

People go to the lake of fire due to their sins, period.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That conviction comes from the Holy Spirit. But when the heart is convicted the sinner must respond.

Now, how in the world do you know that they were under the conviction of the Holy Spirit? How do even I know this? Is it because you see them crying and gripping the back of a pew with white knuckles? How do you truly know this is what was going on? Way too many 'soothsayers' are what are destroying our churches. I have seen people bawl like babies, but how does that mean that they are under conviction? How many have bawled, went to an 'altar' and 'prayed the prayer' and voila', they're saved? Then in no time, they're back in the same old sinful rut. My mother-in-law's dad died lost. When he was sick in the hospital, people would come in and pray with him and he'd bawl like a baby. He'd even say that once he would get home and doing better, he'd start going to church. Then after he got home, back to chasing the women he would go. Men can get stirred up in the flesh and evoke cryings, but it takes a work upon the heart to make a change.

Many don't, for example Cain, he offered the works of his hands to God when he was told to offer a lamb and its blood. When God refused the offering what did He say to Cain?

Cain's offering was without blood. It was his crops he offered as a sacrifice. God said “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”Gen. 4:6,7] God forewarned him about what sin would do to him. Can any man, left in his fallen state, rule over sin? Absolutely not. If we could, then there would have been no need for Christ to come and die. Cain acted with his sinful heart by “Let’s go out to the field.”While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.[vs 8] In my opinion, and without a doubt in my mind, Cain did this in a premeditated fashion. I think he lured Abel out into the field, knowing he was going to kill him, or at least attempt to do so.

Notice the Lord spoke to Him just as the Holy Spirit convicts today,

God also spoke with Satan, too. But He has no desire in saving him. Just because God speaks with someone, it does not mean He will save them.

Cain was told if that is maybe he would maybe he wouldn't, but if he did well and followed God's instruction salvation was his. But Cain rejected to do and follow God's instruction He refused to receive Christ. That lead him to murder his brother.

God showed Cain how 'apart from me you can do nothing.'[Jn. 15:5b]

Just as it is in our world today people are convicted by the Holy Spirit but refuse to receive salvation. It's there the offer made the price has been paid but they walk in the way of Cain and reject Christ.

Again, how can you 100% know they're under conviction? Please elaborate.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

You believe only the elect will be saved. You have repeated that over and over again.
You also believe in reprobation.
Note especially Chapter 10: Effectual Calling:

Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.

Okay.....:wavey:

You mention that at the Lord's table people are told that Christ died for them of course of course that's all that because that's what the Lord's table celebrates that He died for the believers

Okay....:wavey:

Even if they receive the gospel, believe the gospel, are called by the Spirit to believe the gospel, yet they still cannot be saved

.

What are you talking about? Who says this?

This is reprobation and entirely contrary to the teaching of the Word of God

:

No it is not....:laugh:




Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It is the very heart of the gospel message by the which ye are saved:

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Paul is speaking to believers here.....



So you have not shown one verse where random strangers are told the Christ died for them

 

[revmwc]

Again, how can you 100% know they're under conviction? Please elaborate.

I know 100% because Jesus said they would be,

John 12:32, And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Christ through the Holy Spirit will draw all mankind to Him, will they all follow the drawing?


Hebrews 3 makes it really clear the Holy Spirit convicts but they can harden their hearts,

Hebrews 3
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Again in
Hebrews 3:

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

Then again we see why people end up in the Lake of Fire

Hebrews 3
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Just as the Jews of Moses day could not enter into rest neither can those of our day enter it because of unbelief. They hardened their hearts to the Gospel. "(as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,. Whosoever Hears His voice and that will be everyone. Then he says harden not your heart. Guess what God foreknew the choices they would make. He knew who would respond positively and negatively, Christ blood paid for all mankind, He became the propitiation for our sin, but not for ours only but for the whole world. Those for whom he foreknew them He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His dear Son.

All the work of God for Salvation but God gave mankind free choice. They can heed or they can harden, it is their choice.

 

[revmwc]

DHK


Okay.....:wavey:




Okay....:wavey:



.

What are you talking about? Who says this?



:

No it is not....:laugh:




Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It is the very heart of the gospel message by the which ye are saved:



Paul is speaking to believers here.....



So you have not shown one verse where random strangers are told the Christ died for them

Mark 16:
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

We know that The Apostles reached and went to the nations of the world. We know about Philip, we see in

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

God could very well have lifted up folks in that day and sent them into the whole world. That Gospel would have reached hearts in those lands and it is still in hearts of some today. We are not told that but The Holy Spirit moved Philip in that way, He could have for many others.

Nathanael is believed to have made it into India with the gospel. The Holy Spirit has the Ability to move folks where they are needed to present the Gospel.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I know 100% because Jesus said they would be,

What I mean is there is no way that you can with 100% certainty know that just because they are bawling and clasping the back of a pew that the Holy Spirit is convicting them. Maybe a fat person is standing on their toes. :laugh:
Maybe they are, maybe they are not. But you can, at best, speculate the Spirit is convicting them.

Christ through the Holy Spirit will draw all mankind to Him, will they all follow the drawing?

John 12:32 is so abused on here. How are people drawn to Christ? This is how they are drawn It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.[Jn. 6:45] How are they taught? Right here shows How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? [Rom. 10:14] If Jesus draws all men w/o exception, what about those that died the same day He died? Even before His resurrection? Those that died in Brazil, Paraguay, Uraguay, Columbia, Peru, and the other countries in South America? Did He draw them even before He was resurrected? Remember, 'all mean all w/o excpetion', per your side of the debate.

Hebrews 3 makes it really clear the Holy Spirit convicts but they can harden their hearts,

I never said people can not and do not harden their hearts. They can and do. I never said that people can not and do not resist the Holy Spirit. They can and do. But there comes a point in time when God goes and gets His sheep. He calls them via the gospel, and not mystical means. He calls, they learn via the gospel, and are drawn to Christ via the gospel. No gospel=no salvation.

Just as the Jews of Moses day could not enter into rest neither can those of our day enter it because of unbelief. They hardened their hearts to the Gospel. "(as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,. Whosoever Hears His voice and that will be everyone. Then he says harden not your heart. Guess what God foreknew the choices they would make. He knew who would respond positively and negatively, Christ blood paid for all mankind, He became the propitiation for our sin, but not for ours only but for the whole world. Those for whom he foreknew them He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His dear Son.

All the work of God for Salvation but God gave mankind free choice. They can heed or they can harden, it is their choice.

Fallen man chooses freely within his fallen nature.

 

[Iconoclast]

We know that The Apostles reached and went to the nations of the world. We know about Philip, we see in



God could very well have lifted up folks in that day and sent them into the whole world. That Gospel would have reached hearts in those lands and it is still in hearts of some today. We are not told that but The Holy Spirit moved Philip in that way, He could have for many others.

Nathanael is believed to have made it into India with the gospel. The Holy Spirit has the Ability to move folks where they are needed to present the Gospel.

While these events are recorded for us in scripture.....it does NOT mean that all men all over the world have heard the gospel.

Millions have perished in their sins. That is why missionaries still go out.

You cannot just turn your theology into wild speculations and fantasy.

Saying what God could do.......God could make millions of bumble bees that are 2 miles long.....does not equate to reality.:laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK.

The London Baptist of 1689 will do just fine:

It is a good place to start:thumbsup:

You believe only the elect will be saved.

Do you believe the elect will not be saved?

Are the elect....elected to be lost? Is that what you are saying?

The fact of election as a biblical doctrine shows it was necessary because of sin and death.

You have repeated that over and over again

.

Scripture repeats it over and over......I rejoice in these truths as they are a great mercy.:thumbs:

You also believe in reprobation.

I believe all revealed truth. I would like to come to a better understanding of all these truths as all Christians should.

Note especially Chapter 10: Effectual Calling:

These confessions are well written.....take one line at a time...like this;


Others not elected,

although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,

and may have some common operations of the Spirit,

yet not being effectually drawn by the Father,

they neither will nor can truly come to Christ,

and therefore cannot be saved:

much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved;

be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.

This is an accurate statement.

Even if they receive the gospel, believe the gospel, are called by the Spirit to believe the gospel, yet they still cannot be saved.

This is a complete misreading of the document. The document while man made is based solidly on the God given scriptures.
If you misread it on purpose it is as if you want to pervert scripture itself.
Is that your goal DHK?

This is reprobation and entirely contrary to the teaching of the Word of God:

Moster strawman on the loose......what you have written is a caricature.
You left off points 1,2, 3, which if read line by line....you cannot refute because they are solidly biblical:wavey:

Points 1,2, 3, show the positive teaching of election....that is why point 4 starts by saying.....4._____ Others not elected

to understand you must read the teaching in sequence like this...

Those whom God hath predestinated unto life,

he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time,

effectually to call,

by his Word and Spirit,

out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature,

to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; e

nlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;

taking away their heart of stone,

and giving unto them a heart of flesh;

renewing their wills,

and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good,

and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;

yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace



._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone,

not from anything at all foreseen in man,

nor from any power or agency in the creature,

being wholly passive therein,

being dead in sins and trespasses,

until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit;

he is thereby enabled to answer this call,

and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it,

and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.


All of these truths are taught in these verses and others...this is just a start.

If you do this perhaps God will let the truth shine unto you....and you will not have to battle this army of strawmen that you struggle with mightily:thumbs:

 

[HankD]

It takes considerable wresting of the scriptures to come up with that interpretation, instead of taking what the verses say at face value.

Not when one considers the translational word choices of the King James committee in the year 1611 considering the combination of Jacobean-Elizabethan English combined with their bias on many theological matters.

I felt it was worth your consideration and it's (as others have said) not a hill to die upon.

New American Bible
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit

NIV Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit

It's my opinion that this indictment was directed toward those Hebrews who were present and shared in the Day of Pentecost events, saw the signs and wonders (possibly even for a season while the signs and wonders continued on as a witness to Israel), yet did not enter into the new aspect of the church age because their faith (even under the law) was defective in the first place.

They are now excluded (unless God permit) from entering.
Although, ultimately in a special case, it's up to God else Saul of Tarsus would not have become Paul the apostle.

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

...Even unbelievers have a measure of light from God:

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Some theologians believe that after a season of rebellion the Spirit of God will leave off convicting a man and depart from him never to return but I believe it's the opposite:....

That conviction comes from the Holy Spirit. But when the heart is convicted the sinner must respond......

I know this is one of the most holy of holy grails and sacred of sacred cows with the evangelicals, but this is a gross misapplication of this scripture. Period.

When Christ commissioned the twelve apostles He foretold them:
But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to councils, and in their synagogues they will scourge you; yea and before governors and kings shall ye be brought for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, be not anxious how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you. Mt 10:17-20

In the Olivet Discourse He foretold them:
But before all these things, they shall lay their hands on you, and shall persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for my name`s sake. It shall turn out unto you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate beforehand how to answer: for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to withstand or to gainsay. Lk 21:12-15

In the Farewell Discourse He foretold them:
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God.....And he, when he [the Comforter] is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye behold me no more; of judgment, because the prince of this world hath been judged. Jn 16:2, 8-11

The 'world' that is referred to is:
Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18:20

It was CHRIST HIMSELF speaking through Peter and His witnesses in convicting the Jews of the heinous crime of crucifying the Lord of Glory. Read the record of the Spirit convicting the apostate ecclesiastical system of the Jews, through the testimony of His witnesses, of the murder of the Righteous One, and declare Him indeed to be righteous. Take note, in all these examples given, of the redundancy of the message from the Comforter to the Jews; YOU KILLED HIM, BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.

Acts 2:
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spake forth unto them, saying, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and give ear unto my words.
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.
40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

Acts 3:
12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this man? or why fasten ye your eyes on us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made him to walk?
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.14 But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you,
15 and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

Acts 4:
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders,
9 if we this day are examined concerning a good deed done to an impotent man, by what means this man is made whole;
10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even in him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Acts 5:
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
28 saying, We strictly charged you not to teach in this name: and behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us.
29 But Peter and the apostles answered and said, We must obey God rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree.
31 Him did God exalt with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.
32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 6:
8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, wrought great wonders and signs among the people.
9 But there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen.
10 And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake.
15 And all that sat in the council, fastening their eyes on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.
Acts 7:
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers;
53 ye who received the law as it was ordained by angels, and kept it not.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7

Acts 10:
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree.
40 Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest,
41 not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead.

Acts 13:
16 And Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken:
27 For they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people.

 

[kyredneck]

Reference Pink on it:

"...And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment" (John 16:8). There is hardly a sentence in this Gospel which has been more generally misunderstood than the one just quoted. With rare exceptions this verse is understood to refer to the benign activities of the Holy Spirit among those who hear the Gospel. It is supposed to define His work in the conscience prior to conversion. It is regarded as a description of His gracious operations in bringing the sinner to see his need of a Savior. So firmly has this idea taken root in the minds even of the Lord’s people, it is difficult to induce them to study this verse for themselves—study it in the light of what precedes, study it in the light of the amplification which follows, study the terms employed, comparing their usage in other passages. If this be done carefully and dispassionately, we feel confident that many will discover how untenable is the popular view of it.

It should be very evident that something must be wrong if this verse be interpreted so as to clash with Christ’s explicit statement in John 14:17, "The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive." What then is the character of the "reproof" that is here spoken of? Is it an evangelical conviction wrought in the heart, or is it something that is altogether external? Almost all the older commentators regarded it as the former. We, with an increasing number of later writers, believe it is the latter. One of the leading lexicons of the twentieth century gives as the meaning of elencho, "to bring in guilty; to put to shame by proving one to be wrong; to convict with a view to condemnation and judgment, but not necessarily to convince; to bring in guilty without any confession or feeling of guilt by the guilty one."...........It is rather refutation by proofs, convicting by unanswerable arguments as an advocate, that is meant.".........."Here the Holy Spirit is not spoken of as dealing with individuals when He regenerates them and they believe, but as bringing conviction to the world because of sin. The Holy Ghost being here, convicts the world, i.e., what is outside where He is. Were there faith, He would be in their midst: but the world doth not believe. Hence Christ is, as everywhere in John, the standard for judging the condition of men" (Mr. W. Kelly)...."

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/John/john_54.htm

 

[revmwc]

While these events are recorded for us in scripture.....it does NOT mean that all men all over the world have heard the gospel.

Millions have perished in their sins. That is why missionaries still go out.

You cannot just turn your theology into wild speculations and fantasy.

Saying what God could do.......God could make millions of bumble bees that are 2 miles long.....does not equate to reality.:laugh:

WE also cannot limit the Omnipotence of God. Man through the centuries has had a witness from God. Abraham is the perfect example, he was called out of UR of the Caldee's, that is Flame and Destruction by God. He lived among sin and sinners and yet among idolatry God found a man who believed on Him, how because somehow Abram had heard the gospel.

Many people groups all around world who were never reached have people looking for the great leader who is coming from God and when they were reached by Missionaries readily received Christ because they had already believed He was coming.

The American Indians sought the True Chief who was coming why because they had someone who had told them that a savior was coming and as the unbelievers of the O.T. they believe that savior was coming.

So many want to limit God's power and ability to reach people and yet God has reached people throughout time.

1 John 5:8 nd there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Hebrews 12:1,
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Hebrews 11:1-7
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

All people groups know of these men and thus have a witness about them and can fall under the conviction of the Holy Spirit the Witness of the Spirit!

 

[Rippon]

You err when you make the claim below. I know that many folks in this Eastern land have never heard of Cain, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham and so forth.

When I tell them of Jesus they have a bemused smile on their faces. It's as if they know I am under a magical enchantment and have lost all perspective. They may have heard of Him by name, but know little of His life.

The folks below? Not a chance. You'd be starting from scratch.

All people groups know of these men and thus have a witness about them and can fall under the conviction of the Holy Spirit the Witness of the Spirit!

 

[revmwc]

You err when you make the claim below. I know that many folks in this Eastern land have never heard of Cain, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham and so forth.

When I tell them of Jesus they have a bemused smile on their faces. It's as if they know I am under a magical enchantment and have lost all perspective. They may have heard of Him by name, but know little of His life.

The folks below? Not a chance. You'd be starting from scratch.

Muslims see Adam as the first Muslim, as the Qur'an promulgates that all the prophets preached the same faith of submission to God.[3] His story is told in the Qur'an in numerous places, though his Qur'anic narrative differs from that in the Torah in some aspects.

On The Sources Of The Story Of Cain & Abel In The Qur'an

M S M Saifullah, Mansur Ahmed & Elias Karim

© Islamic Awareness, All Rights Reserved.

First Composed: 15th August 1998

Last Updated: 5th March 2006

Assalamu-`alaykum wa rahamatullahi wa barakatuhu:
1. Introduction

The Reverend. W. St. Clair Tisdall in his book The Original Sources Of The Qur'an wanted to show that Muhammad 'constructed' Islam from several sources: Judaism, Christianity, Sabeanism, Zoroastrianism, paganism, etc. In the chapter dealing with the Jewish sources of the Qur'an, Tisdall proposes that different parts of the story of Cain and Abel as narrated in the Qur'an were borrowed from the Jewish sources such as "Targum of Jonathan and Targum of Jerusalem", "Pirqey Rabbi Eli'zer" and "Mishnah Sanhedrin".[1] Tisdall also acknowledges that he has borrowed most of the material on the issue of Cain and Abel from Abraham Geiger's book Was hat Mohammed aus dem Judenthume aufgenommen?[2] The claim that different parts of the Qur'anic story of Cain and Abel were borrowed from the above mentioned Jewish sources was actively endorsed by Christian missionaries such as Anis Shorrosh,[3] Abdiyah Akbar Abdul-Haqq,[4] Mateen Elass,[5] Norman Geisler and Abdul Saleeb among others.[6]

Accepting the view of Geiger, without any criticism, Ibn Warraq endorses that the story of Cain and Abel in the Qur'an was borrowed from Jewish sources:

The murder of Abel in the Koran is borrowed from the Bible, but the conversation of Cain with Abel before Cain kills him is taken from the Targum of Jerusalem, generally known as pseudo-Jonathan. In the Koran, after the murder God sent a raven that scratched the earth to show Cain how to bury Abel.... [The Qur'anic passages] only become clear if we look at Mishna Sanhedrin 4.5.[7]

The Qur'an has stories of these men in it so the claim stands.

 

[kyredneck]

Rippon is in China.

 

[revmwc]

Rippon is in China.

The land reached by Matthew in the 1st century.

 

[Van]

Folks, there was a popular phrase during the Watergate era, a "non-denial denial." Did you see where it was admitted that Calvinism denies those who were not saved, were bought with the blood of Christ? I did not either.

In review, Christ is our propitiation or means of salvation. Christ died for all mankind, those who would be saved and those not saved. They were all bought by His blood, 2 Peter 2:1. Christ tasted death for everyone. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world of fallen mankind.

You have been shown by many in here that you have an false understanding of what propitiation actually accomplishes. It satisified God's wrath. If Christ propitiated for everyone w/o exception, then there is no wrath on All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.[Eph. 2:3] There is no wrath upon His sheep, but upon the rest of the world.

The issue is whether or not Christ is the means of salvation for the whole world. He is. No one has shown Christ is not the means of salvation for the whole world.

No one said Christ "propitiated" everyone. This malicious misrepresentation demonstrates why discussion with Calvinists is unfruitful.

Each chosen individual is propitiated when God places them in Christ and they undergo the circumcision of Christ. The constant misdirection by Calvinists reflects the truth Calvinism cannot actually be defended biblically.

There is no wrath upon those God has placed spiritually in Christ. So simple.

Christ died for the whole world, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, He tasted death for everyone, including those who will not be saved.

 

[Van]

You want more proof? According to the mistaken doctrine of Calvinism, Jesus died only for the supposedly previously chosen foreseen individuals, and when He died, then they were at that instant and not at a later time, propitiated, there sin burden (God's wrath) was removed. But the very verse quoted says (Ephesians 2:1-3) that we were by nature (born that way) children of wrath. Therefore God's wrath toward us individually had not been removed. Demonstrating Calvinism does not fit with scripture is like shooting fish in a barrel.

 

[HankD]

I know this is one of the most holy of holy grails and sacred of sacred cows with the evangelicals, but this is a gross misapplication of this scripture. Period.

When Christ commissioned the twelve apostles He foretold them:
But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to councils, and in their synagogues they will scourge you; yea and before governors and kings shall ye be brought for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, be not anxious how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you. Mt 10:17-20

In the Olivet Discourse He foretold them:
But before all these things, they shall lay their hands on you, and shall persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for my name`s sake. It shall turn out unto you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate beforehand how to answer: for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to withstand or to gainsay. Lk 21:12-15

In the Farewell Discourse He foretold them:
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God.....And he, when he [the Comforter] is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye behold me no more; of judgment, because the prince of this world hath been judged. Jn 16:2, 8-11

The 'world' that is referred to is:
Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18:20

It was CHRIST HIMSELF speaking through Peter and His witnesses in convicting the Jews of the heinous crime of crucifying the Lord of Glory. Read the record of the Spirit convicting the apostate ecclesiastical system of the Jews, through the testimony of His witnesses, of the murder of the Righteous One, and declare Him indeed to be righteous. Take note, in all these examples given, of the redundancy of the message from the Comforter to the Jews; YOU KILLED HIM, BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.

Acts 2:
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spake forth unto them, saying, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and give ear unto my words.
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.
40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

Acts 3:
12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this man? or why fasten ye your eyes on us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made him to walk?
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.14 But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you,
15 and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

Acts 4:
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders,
9 if we this day are examined concerning a good deed done to an impotent man, by what means this man is made whole;
10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even in him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Acts 5:
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
28 saying, We strictly charged you not to teach in this name: and behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us.
29 But Peter and the apostles answered and said, We must obey God rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree.
31 Him did God exalt with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.
32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 6:
8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, wrought great wonders and signs among the people.
9 But there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen.
10 And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake.
15 And all that sat in the council, fastening their eyes on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.
Acts 7:
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers;
53 ye who received the law as it was ordained by angels, and kept it not.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7

Acts 10:
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree.
40 Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest,
41 not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead.

Acts 13:
16 And Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken:
27 For they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people.

Acts is a transitional book. Once the scripture is/was completed some of the rules for the preaching/teaching apostolic revelation passed off the scene of the modus operandi of apostles having been codified in the New Testament revelation.

Acts is a book describing the who, what, where and when of the age of the Law of Moses giving way to the age of the church of Jesus Christ.
It describes how believing Jews in this transitional season were translated from Judaism to Christianity. It describes how non-circumcised gentiles who did not keep the law of Moses had the Holy Spirit fall upon and infill them.

Hebrews 2
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

The signs and wonders were evidences of God's approval of the transition.
Now having been confirmed (and codified in the NT scripture) they are no longer necessary

Now the in-gathering command of the Great Commission, after the departure of the apostles and completion of the NT scripture falls upon regenerated infilled/gifted individuals (whether Jew or Gentile) using the completed scripture in partnership with the Spirit to seek those who contain the fruit of conviction of sin (which may not always be obvious).


HankD

 

[kyredneck]

Ok.

Not sure how any of the above justifies the evangelical fabrications surrounding Jn 16:7-9.

[add]

...I guess this is it:

Now the in-gathering command of the Great Commission, after the departure of the apostles and completion of the NT scripture falls upon regenerated infilled/gifted individuals (whether Jew or Gentile) using the completed scripture in partnership with the Spirit to seek those who contain the fruit of conviction of sin (which may not always be obvious).

The prediction/foretelling of Christ in Jn 16:7-9 has been fulfilled. The Acts of the Apostles reveals it's fulfillment.