The Children whom God hath given me

[Van]

According to the mistaken doctrine of Calvinism, Jesus died only for the supposedly previously chosen foreseen individuals, and when He died, then they were at that instant and not at a later time, propitiated, there sin burden (God's wrath) was removed. But the very verse quoted says (Ephesians 2:1-3) that we were by nature (born that way) children of wrath. Therefore God's wrath toward us individually had not been removed.

The folks God gives to Christ are those whose faith God has credited as righteousness. This selection is our conditional election for salvation through faith in the truth.

 

[DHK]

DHK

What are you talking about? Who says this?

Who says: "Even if they receive the gospel, believe the gospel, are called by the Spirit to believe the gospel, yet they still cannot be saved."

Your 1689 London Confession of Faith (which you affirmed) says that (just not in those words).
Read it again:

Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.

--They may be called by the ministry of the Word.
--They may have some common operations of the Spirit.
IOW, no matter how much of the Word they hear and no matter how much of the Spirit works, they cannot be saved. It is impossible for them to be saved.

That is the horrible doctrine of reprobation absolutely contrary to Word of God. There are many other Calvinists that have put it much more succinctly that the 1689 Confession of Faith.

From Boettner:

"The Reformed Faith has held to the existence of an eternal, divine decree which, antecedently to any difference or desert in men themselves separates the human race into two portions and ordains one to everlasting life an the other to everlasting death...
Their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or decreased."
(L. Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, page 82-83)

I would call it heresy except that, some don't like that word. So, it is not Biblical.

No it is not....:laugh:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It is the very heart of the gospel message by the which ye are saved:

Where do you find "reprobation" as part of the gospel message that Paul just quoted. That is "No, it is not" refers to.

Paul is speaking to believers here.....

This statement refers to the gospel being defined in 1Cor.15:1-4, where Paul explicitly says "by the which ye are saved," and "Christ died for you."
Why did he say that? The gospel was given to them that they might give it to others.
In the same way the gospel was given (Mat.28:29-10) to the disciples, that they might take it to all the world--preach it to every creature (Mark 16:15).
But the gospel is for the believers to preach to the unbelievers.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

So you have not shown one verse where random strangers are told the Christ died for them

That is exactly what Paul did.

Rom 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:
--He was a pioneer missionary going to complete strangers, preaching the gospel in places where the name of Christ had never been named.
He preached the Gospel as he himself defined in (1Cor.15:1-4)

Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

And when he preached about the sufferings of Christ (his death) and his resurrection, he saw the results:

Act 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
Act 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

 

[DHK]

DHK.

Do you believe the elect will not be saved?

Are the elect....elected to be lost? Is that what you are saying?

The fact of election as a biblical doctrine shows it was necessary because of sin and death.

Of course I believe in the doctrine of election. It is in the Bible is it not.
I simply don't interpret in the same way the Calvinist erroneously interprets it.
Of course all the elect will be saved. As I have mentioned to you before this is such a redundant statement: blue is blue and red is red. It needs no repeating.
The part of the doctrine of election and predestination which is not biblical is that of reprobation.

I believe all revealed truth. I would like to come to a better understanding of all these truths as all Christians should.

Reprobation is not "a revealed truth." It is a Calvinistic error.
It is your understanding of this doctrine that is lacking.

These confessions are well written.....take one line at a time...like this;


Others not elected,

although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,

and may have some common operations of the Spirit,

yet not being effectually drawn by the Father,

they neither will nor can truly come to Christ,

and therefore cannot be saved:

much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved;

be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.

This is an accurate statement.

It is not an accurate statement. It is false.
Any person defined as:

although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,
and may have some common operations of the Spirit,

can be saved.
The foolish men who try to outsmart the wisdom of God are not so intelligent as they claim to be. Salvation is based on whether of not a person believes the gospel. God knows (in his omniscience) who will believe and who will not. Any who hear the Word of God may be saved. No one is

" not being effectually drawn by the Father,
they neither will nor can truly come to Christ,
and therefore cannot be saved:"

If they have heard the Word of God they have the opportunity to freely choose whether or not to be saved, even though the authors of the London Cof say they can't. It is not up to them. God has the final say, not them.

This is a complete misreading of the document. The document while man made is based solidly on the God given scriptures.
If you misread it on purpose it is as if you want to pervert scripture itself.
Is that your goal DHK?

I didn't misread the document. It clearly says what I paraphrased, just as I have done for you again. Even if a person wants to be saved he can't. Heresy!

Moster strawman on the loose......what you have written is a caricature.
You left off points 1,2, 3, which if read line by line....you cannot refute because they are solidly biblical:wavey:

Points 1,2, 3, show the positive teaching of election....that is why point 4 starts by saying.....4._____ Others not elected

Others not elected on what basis?
There is no strawman here.
Read Ephesians one carefully. Election always refers to the believer and the believer's service to God.

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
--Why are we chosen--to be to the praise of his glory.

to understand you must read the teaching in sequence like this...

Those whom God hath predestinated unto life,

he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time,

effectually to call,

by his Word and Spirit,

out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature,

to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; e

nlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;

taking away their heart of stone,

and giving unto them a heart of flesh;

renewing their wills,

and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good,

and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;

yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace

So, that is speaking of the believer. No problem.

._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone,

not from anything at all foreseen in man,

nor from any power or agency in the creature,

being wholly passive therein,

being dead in sins and trespasses,

until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit;

he is thereby enabled to answer this call,

and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it,

and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.


All of these truths are taught in these verses and others...this is just a start.

If you do this perhaps God will let the truth shine unto you....and you will not have to battle this army of strawmen that you struggle with mightily:thumbs:

I am not speaking of the election of the believer, Icon.
It is the predestination of the unsaved or reprobation which is entirely unbiblical.

You are not addressing the question, but avoiding it.

 

[Van]

The issue is whether or not Christ is the means of salvation for the whole world. He is. No one has shown Christ is not the means of salvation for the whole world.

No one said Christ "propitiated" everyone. This malicious misrepresentation demonstrates why discussion with Calvinists is unfruitful.

Each chosen individual is propitiated when God places them in Christ and they undergo the circumcision of Christ. The constant misdirection by Calvinists reflects the truth Calvinism cannot actually be defended biblically.

There is no wrath upon those God has placed spiritually in Christ. So simple.

Christ died for the whole world, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, He tasted death for everyone, including those who will not be saved.

 

[McCree79]

.

No one said Christ "propitiated" everyone. This malicious misrepresentation demonstrates why discussion with Calvinists is unfruitful.
.

Sure they are....

But every persons sin has been atoned by the blood of the eternal sacrifice. They just refuse the effects of Grace in thier lives.

If Christ atoned(reparation) for every sin of every person, he provided propitiation (appeasement) for each and every sin of each and every person. The Father would have received payment for sins. The debt paid, appeasement made. This claims leads to 2 possibilities. #1 universalism: all will be redeemed in time. #2 God is punishing sins that have already been propitiated. Which means He would be unjust.

 

[kyredneck]

...those who contain the fruit of conviction of sin (which may not always be obvious)....

I will concede somewhat on this point. Acts 2:

5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

I believe these were regenerate already, circumcised in heart, Jews inwardly, Israelites indeed.

36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?
38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

But to reiterate the point made by Pink:

"Here the Holy Spirit is not spoken of as dealing with individuals when He regenerates them and they believe, but as bringing conviction to the world because of sin."

 

[HankD]

Ok.

Not sure how any of the above justifies the evangelical fabrications surrounding Jn 16:7-9.

[add]

...I guess this is it:



The prediction/foretelling of Christ in Jn 16:7-9 has been fulfilled. The Acts of the Apostles reveals it's fulfillment.

John 16
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Later He revealed the "things to come" to them through guiding them through all truth whereby they completed the NT scripture.


HankD

 

[Van]

Sure they are....

If Christ atoned(reparation) for every sin of every person, he provided propitiation (appeasement) for each and every sin of each and every person. The Father would have received payment for sins. The debt paid, appeasement made. This claims leads to 2 possibilities. #1 universalism: all will be redeemed in time. #2 God is punishing sins that have already been propitiated. Which means He would be unjust.

And once again, the non-Cal position is misrepresented. Here you are supplying your definition of "atoned." This is classic. Did I use the term? Nope. Why not? Because Calvinism defines it as removing the sin burden, rather than providing the means of removing the sin burden. So simple.

Note that when God places a person spiritually in Christ, they undergo the circumcision of Christ where their sin burden is removed. Thus Universalism is once again not supported in any way, shape or form. Yet Calvinists will repeat this strawman again and again to obfuscate.

Only when a person "receives" the reconciliation is their sin burden removed, i.e. they are propitiated, not before.

And Ephesians 2:1-3 demonstrates your view, wrath removed when Christ died, rather than when God puts us in Christ through faith in the truth, is unbiblical.

 

[HankD]

I will concede somewhat on this point. Acts 2:

5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

I believe these were regenerate already, circumcised in heart, Jews inwardly, Israelites indeed.

36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?
38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

But to reiterate the point made by Pink:

"Here the Holy Spirit is not spoken of as dealing with individuals when He regenerates them and they believe, but as bringing conviction to the world because of sin."

Well, I have often wondered if the "elect" are those individuals who are coming into the world with a predisposition to being sensitive to the Holy Spirit.

Never took it beyond just wondering. Maybe I'm just not ready yet.

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

John 16
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Later He revealed the "things to come" to them through guiding them through all truth whereby they completed the NT scripture.


HankD

I believe He gave them a preview of the good things to come (I would love to have heard His sermon of v 27):

27 And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
32 And they said one to another, Was not our heart burning within us, while he spake to us in the way, while he opened to us the scriptures?
44 And he said unto them, These are my words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures;
49 And behold, I send forth the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city, until ye be clothed with power from on high. Lu 24

 

[kyredneck]

Well, I have often wondered if the "elect" are those individuals who are coming into the world with a predisposition to being sensitive to the Holy Spirit.

Never took it beyond just wondering. Maybe I'm just not ready yet.

HankD

I thought you held to OT saints were regenerate as NT saints.

 

[Van]

Here you are supplying your definition of "atoned." This is classic. Did I use the term? Nope. Why not? Because Calvinism defines it as removing the sin burden, rather than providing the means of removing the sin burden. So simple.

Note that when God places a person spiritually in Christ, they undergo the circumcision of Christ where their sin burden is removed. Thus Universalism is once again not supported in any way, shape or form. Yet Calvinists will repeat this strawman again and again to obfuscate.

Only when a person "receives" the reconciliation is their sin burden removed, i.e. they are propitiated, not before.

And Ephesians 2:1-3 demonstrates your view, wrath removed when Christ died, rather than when God puts us in Christ through faith in the truth, is unbiblical.

 

[kyredneck]

Well, I have often wondered if the "elect" are those individuals who are coming into the world with a predisposition to being sensitive to the Holy Spirit.

Never took it beyond just wondering. Maybe I'm just not ready yet.

HankD

I thought you held to OT saints were regenerate as NT saints.

Don't you?

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=959836#post959836

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2180234#post2180234

I do.

Is it a hard thing to think of these devout Jews at Pentecost as regenerate Old Covenant saints converted to the New Covenant?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Revemwc and Brother DHK,

If I am understanding the both of you correctly, you both assert one goes to eternal damnation for rejecting Christ. What about those who never hear the gospel? Also, if hearing and not believing the gospel is what damns one to hell, it seems we would all be better off not preaching the gospel, thus nobody would go to Hell.

Brother Joe

 

[SovereignGrace]

WE also cannot limit the Omnipotence of God. Man through the centuries has had a witness from God. Abraham is the perfect example, he was called out of UR of the Caldee's, that is Flame and Destruction by God. He lived among sin and sinners and yet among idolatry God found a man who believed on Him, how because somehow Abram had heard the gospel.

God verbally spoke to Abram. He does not do that with us now. God speaks to us through His word via reading and preaching.

Many people groups all around world who were never reached have people looking for the great leader who is coming from God and when they were reached by Missionaries readily received Christ because they had already believed He was coming.

This reeks of mysticism. And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?[/quote][Rom. 10:] They were not looking for someone they knew nothing about. If I am understanding correctly what you posted, you are posting stuff contrary to scripture.

The American Indians sought the True Chief who was coming why because they had someone who had told them that a savior was coming and as the unbelievers of the O.T. they believe that savior was coming.

No. They believed in a 'happy hunting ground', they 'knew' of an afterlife, but you are posting contrary to scripture if I am understanding you correctly.

So many want to limit God's power and ability to reach people and yet God has reached people throughout time.

We are not limiting His power. But going the extrabiblical route we do not.

All people groups know of these men and thus have a witness about them and can fall under the conviction of the Holy Spirit the Witness of the Spirit!

Please reread Romans 10.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Revemwc and Brother DHK,

If I am understanding the both of you correctly, you both assert one goes to eternal damnation for rejecting Christ. What about those who never hear the gospel? Also, if hearing and not believing the gospel is what damns one to hell, it seems we would all be better off not preaching the gospel, thus nobody would go to Hell.

Brother Joe

A couple people told me that children had to know they are sinning before they were considered sinners. I told one of them later, after I thought about it, if that was the case, we could take our kids and move back to a cave in the mountains and never allow anyone to tell them about Jesus if it was that simple. People think it takes knowledge to make one a sinner. Mind boggling. O-_o

 

[SovereignGrace]

Revemwc and Brother DHK,

If I am understanding the both of you correctly, you both assert one goes to eternal damnation for rejecting Christ. What about those who never hear the gospel? Also, if hearing and not believing the gospel is what damns one to hell, it seems we would all be better off not preaching the gospel, thus nobody would go to Hell.

Brother Joe

Don't be silly. Everyone, even those who died in South America before Christ was resurrected has heard the gospel. Per their ideology.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Don't be silly. Everyone, even those who died in South America before Christ was resurrected has heard the gospel. Per their ideology.

Brother Sovereign,

That would be impossible for me to believe! I would like for them to tell me using a citation from history who preached the gospel to the American Indians prior to Columbus?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Brother Sovereign,

That would be impossible for me to believe! I would like for them to tell me using a citation from history who preached the gospel to the American Indians prior to Columbus?

That is what I am saying. How about those who died in South America the same day our blessed Savior died? Even those who died during the three days His body laid in the tomb? I guess they heard the gospel all the way down there? No.

Read about John Eliot. He had the first bible in North America in the 1600's. It was translated into Algonkian, an native american indian language.

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/164.html

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/john-eliot.html

http://www.christianity.com/church/...0/john-eliot-apostle-to-indians-11630089.html

 

[revmwc]

Brother Sovereign,

That would be impossible for me to believe! I would like for them to tell me using a citation from history who preached the gospel to the American Indians prior to Columbus?

Adam and Noah preached the gospel to them before they were scattered. And some of them were believers and what was preached a savior coming. That is what Adam was Promised that is what He passed down through the generations. That is how Job a contemporary of Abram believed. That is how Enoch walked with God and was not. Fathers passed the gospel down to their children and some believed, when they were scattered that gospel went with them. God always has remnant among mankind.