The Children whom God hath given me

[BrotherJoseph]

It is speculation, philosophy, human reasoning, etc. It is not scripture or based on the scripture. The scripture tells us plainly that there is one way to salvation. You want to deny that fact and prove your theory that there is more than one way.
Either that or you are making a racist suggestion.
They used to suggest that all descendants of Canaan were Negroes and therefore cursed. I hope we have gotten by such thinking.

Are you suggesting that salvation was given to Caucasians and Jews?

Please provide the post that I indicated there are more than one way of salvation. You won't find one and I don't appreciate the false accusations and slander. This actually must be the case for your system if you believe in gospel regeneration as the mentally handicap, the aborted, and infants dying in infancy cannot understand a gospel preacher and thus put faith in what he says. Do you damn all these to Hell or do you have more than one way of salvation for these, which is it? As for if only certain races will be saved, scripture says clearly, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Revelation 5:9) and again, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;" (Revelation 7:9). These scriptures prove that there will be elect of all types of tribes from every nation, kindred, tribe, and people throughout history, but we also know that not every nation, Kindred, Tribe, or tongue through history have heard the gospel preached by a gospel preacher, thus this refutes your false doctrine of gospel regeneration.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

It is the disobedience of those who refuse to preach the gospel.
I believe that. When the Lord gave the responsibility of taking the gospel to the entire world into the hands of eleven men, he had no back up plan. If Christianity were to survive it would have to survive at the hands of those eleven men.
And thus it remains our responsibility today.
Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Brother DHK

This preaching the gospel to all only damns more people per your theology as it produces more people who reject the gospel and thus go to Hell than those who believe it. Don't you see the absurdity of this position? I believe you are a bright man! The 5 points of the doctrines of grace do not have this problem, are logical, and also conform to a uniform interpretation of scripture.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[Rippon]

Instead of giving an intelligent answer you simply call it "sick"?

It was sick. And you have posted things like that in the past too many times.

It was sick, twisted, perverted, stupid, ungodly and trashy.

How do you want me to respond to that?

With an apology to everyone here (not just the Calvinists)for saying such evil things.

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK

This preaching the gospel to all only damns more people per your theology as it produces more people who reject the gospel and thus go to Hell than those who believe it. Don't you see the absurdity of this position? I believe you are a bright man! The 5 points of the doctrines of grace do not have this problem, are logical, and also conform to a uniform interpretation of scripture.

God bless,

Brother Joe

Calvinism is a man-made system offered by a man.
as opposed to:

The Great Commission commanded by Christ and repeated in every gospel and in the Book of Acts. Yet you say the Great Commission given by the command of Christ is ineffective when compared to the philosophy of Calvin. And you expect me to believe this?

Your belief:
"The 5 points of the doctrines of grace do not have this problem, are logical, and also conform to a uniform interpretation of scripture."

My belief:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The five points of Calvinism do not solve the problem of the Great Commission one iota. They may deny them; but they don't solve them.

 

[Rippon]

Calvinism is a man-made system offered by a man.

No, it is not. Where did you get such a silly idea? It stems from the uniform teachings of the B-I-B-L-E.

Yet you say the Great Commission given by the command of Christ is ineffective when compared to the philosophy of Calvin.

You have been warned countless times not to lie. Why do you insist on falsehood?

My belief:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Calvinists endorse all of the above. Why the false allegations?

Why can't you learn to quote someone if you believe a wrong teaching is being put forward? Don't make stuff up and ascribe it to others. You are completely unwarranted to do the things you do so routinely.

 

[Iconoclast]

No, it is not. Where did you get such a silly idea? It stems from the uniform teachings of the B-I-B-L-E.

You have been warned countless times not to lie. Why do you insist on falsehood?

Calvinists endorse all of the above. Why the false allegations?

Why can't you learn to quote someone if you believe a wrong teaching is being put forward? Don't make stuff up and ascribe it to others. You are completely unwarranted to do the things you do so routinely.

:applause::applause::applause::applause:

You notice the same things I do....a few posts back Brother joseph had this observation....

Please provide the post that I indicated there are more than one way of salvation. You won't find one and I don't appreciate the false accusations and slander

This is a constant problem. People are taking notice.

 

[DHK]

No, it is not. Where did you get such a silly idea? It stems from the uniform teachings of the B-I-B-L-E.

You have a choice. Calvinism is authored by Calvin or the Council of Dort.
Certainly not the Word.

The Great Commission is authored by Christ Himself.
Sorry to burst your bubble.

You have been warned countless times not to lie. Why do you insist on falsehood?

Did someone warn me not to quote scripture?
Did someone warn me not to refute error?

"thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things."

Calvinists endorse all of the above. Why the false allegations?

Why can't you learn to quote someone if you believe a wrong teaching is being put forward? Don't make stuff up and ascribe it to others. You are completely unwarranted to do the things you do so routinely.

All of the above things? I simply quoted the Great Commission.

This statement by Bro. Joseph is not in line with the Bible or the Great Commission:

This preaching the gospel to all only damns more people per your theology

 

[Iconoclast]

I did quote it word for word, just like you did--twice nevertheless.
Then I did what you did not do--explain it.

You twisted what was said as usual.....I see...now you are claiming it was your
"explanation"......

The confession of faith is written in such a way that any person honestly seeking truth does not need an extended explanation because the statement made in the confession and the scriptures offered are so clear to anyone without an agenda as you have can see the truth.

That is the reason none of you guys ever attempt to refute it as your "so called" explanation is a caricature everytime.as is obvious by your posts you cannot refute the truths contained in these documents.

Do you ever explain, expound, or exegete scripture so that others can understand it?

Yes I do with anyone who sincerely wants an answer. Do you notice that only you bristle at what I post, and complain about the solid links offered.

I find that such verbose statements of the cof need to be explained as well,

Millions of Christians enjoy and learn from several confessions of faith that you call verbose , and ridicule. I have yet to see a biblically sound person say....you know....that DHK his posts are wonderful and I can learn from them, but these confessions are tedious:laugh:

especially to those who may want to deny what is actually written. It is startling that you actually want to deny your own Calvinistic doctrine of Predestination (which includes reprobation).

Again....where did I say any such thing? I have pointed out your M.O. and others see it now. I do not want to deny any part of the truth.

You have not addressed the subject of the OP.....now the false statements come out revealing your hatred of the truth.

What does it say?
1. Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,

Yes.....because the first 3 parts spoke about the objects of God's electing love.

guess what ...He has not elected everyone. He has elected a multitude and given them to His Son.....the Son dies for these children given to Him by the Father......that is who this thread is about. You hate this truth don't you?

--The non-elect may have heard the gospel (the ministry of the Word) correct? What is the ministry of the word if it is not the preaching of the gospel?

Yes.... they hear of it externally but have no desire to submit to it because of the Noetic effects of the fall. Here is an example from Acts 13;

44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Here you have non elect reprobates being rejected in time while those ordained to eternal life believed....

2. may have some common operations of the Spirit...
The operation of the Spirit is the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit was present in the Apostolic preaching of the word....only those ordained to eternal life believed......the unbelievers were present with believers who were indwelt by the Spirit......and yet...without the secret inner working of the Spirit performing heart surgery they would not and could not believe in spite of having been present as the word went forth in power.

3. yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:
--Yet for all that they cannot be saved.

Correct.....it is clear in this passage that they cannot.

Thus: they can hear the Word,

these unbelievers did

understand the gospel,

no...they can hear the historic facts and claims of the gospel. but they CANNOT savingly grasp it unless enabled to by God.

be convicted of the Holy Spirit

,

a person can be convicted by the ministry of the word and Spirit but not necessarily attain a godly sorrow, but instead have the sorrow of the world
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

and yet it is impossible for them to be saved.

Reprobates do not want truth.....just religion...that is why they are reprobates

They are rejected by God.....it is a biblical teaching which you deny but nevertheless it is quite biblical...Jer.6:30

30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord hath rejected them


2cor13;

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

What a cruel monstrous God!

I would never speak of the biblical God in such a blasphemous manner but then again I am not you:thumbs:

But thankfully the God of love, with outstretched arms toward the believer knows no such nonsense, and is able to save even to the uttermost. There is no person He cannot save, contrary to what Calvinism teaches.

Wrong.....The biblical God saves all He can wisely save.
There is no other way. Many of us trust that the God of all the earth will do right. He is all wise and knows according to His eternal purpose who He is going to save and why.

Sorry you lack the ability to trust that God is accomplishing exactly what he wills to do.

 

[Iconoclast]

Brother DHK

This preaching the gospel to all only damns more people per your theology as it produces more people who reject the gospel and thus go to Hell than those who believe it. Don't you see the absurdity of this position? I believe you are a bright man! The 5 points of the doctrines of grace do not have this problem, are logical, and also conform to a uniform interpretation of scripture.

God bless,

Brother Joe

He does not see it at all. You are waiting for a real response, but there is none that can be offered as you see.You have been very patient and tried to help him yet he scorns your attempts:wavey::wavey:

 

[DHK]

He does not see it at all. You are waiting for a real response, but there is none that can be offered as you see.You have been very patient and tried to help him yet he scorns your attempts:wavey::wavey:

This preaching the gospel to all only damns more people per your theology as it produces more people who reject the gospel and thus go to Hell than those who believe it. Don't you see the absurdity of this position?

The philosophy of a man vs the words of Christ (John 14:6 and Mat.28:19-20)

Christ wins hands down. Too bad you have forsaken Christ for Calvin. I just don't understand your devotion to this man.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This preaching the gospel to all only damns more people per your theology as it produces more people who reject the gospel and thus go to Hell than those who believe it. Don't you see the absurdity of this position?

The philosophy of a man vs the words of Christ (John 14:6 and Mat.28:19-20)

Christ wins hands down. Too bad you have forsaken Christ for Calvin. I just don't understand your devotion to this man.

What he means is that if the only reason people go to hell is by rejecting the gospel, what happens to those who died never hearing it? Quit being this way, mon ami. The Lord doesn't like it when you act out in this fashion.

 

[SovereignGrace]

When Calvinism sets into a church often the spiritual ruin of that church will happen quickly. It will stunt the growth of that church. The believers will become as the believers in Corinth--carnal, giving into immorality, drunkenness, taking one another to court, etc. Their spiritual life will be brought to "ruins" which doesn't mean they will lose their salvation.

http://www.outreachmagazine.com/2013-outreach-100-largest-churches-america.html


Look at these churches and their #'s.


The Potter's House 16,140
Lakewood Church 43,500
Saddleback Church 22,055
Second Baptist Church in Houston Ed Young Sr. pastor 20,656
Phoenix First Assembly of God 21,000
North Point Ministries 30,629
Word of Faith Family Worship Cathedral 8,300
Woodland Church 18,385


Boy, these are some BIG churches that can really make a Christian grow now, can't they? Just because a church has huge #'s, it's no sign that they're building on that solid Foundation, the only Foundation, Christ.


These churches are in spiritual ruin with their beliefs. Look up Jakes, Warren, Stanley, Shook, et al.

 

[Iconoclast]

What he means is that if the only reason people go to hell is by rejecting the gospel, what happens to those who died never hearing it? Quit being this way, mon ami. The Lord doesn't like it when you act out in this fashion.

:applause::applause::applause::wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK;

[ Too bad you have forsaken Christ for Calvin. I just don't understand your devotion to this man.

Who mentioned him?????

We are discussing scripture , Hebrews 2:wavey::wavey::thumbs:

 

[BrotherJoseph]

This statement by Bro. Joseph is not in line with the Bible or the Great Commission:

Quote:
This preaching the gospel to all only damns more people per your theology

__________________
Brother DHK,

My statement above wasn't in line with the Bible because I was following your faulty doctrines to its logical conclusions. You have said countless times on this thread that men do not go to Hell because not because of their sins, but rather for rejecting the gospel. We can probably both agree more people do not believe the gospel than believe it, thus when you preach the gospel, if your theory is correct you are damning more people than you are saving aren't you? For the fourth time I ask, wouldn't we all be better of by your logic if the gospel was never preached, therefore nobody would be damned for rejecting Christ? This isn't Bible theology, my theology, but yours that you have repeated constantly on this thread-that is that those who go to Hell do so for rejecting the gift of the offer of Christ and not for their sin as Christ has paid the ransom and penalty for it.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brpther DHK,

Please answer this question I have now posted several times. If I have to I will start a thread devoted to my unanswered questions just for you, but I hope I won't have to do that.

Please provide the post that I indicated there are more than one way of salvation. You won't find one and I don't appreciate the false accusations and slander. This actually must be the case for your system if you believe in gospel regeneration as the mentally handicap, the aborted, and infants dying in infancy cannot understand a gospel preacher and thus put faith in what he says. Do you damn all these to Hell or do you have more than one way of salvation for these, which is it? As for if only certain races will be saved, scripture says clearly, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Revelation 5:9) and again, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;" (Revelation 7:9). These scriptures prove that there will be elect of all types of tribes from every nation, kindred, tribe, and people throughout history, but we also know that not every nation, Kindred, Tribe, or tongue through history have heard the gospel preached by a gospel preacher, thus this refutes your false doctrine of gospel regeneration.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Another dodged previously posted question by Brother DHK and the ever abscent Revmwc. Please answer.

Originally Posted by BrotherJoseph View Post
Brother DHK,

Now if rejecting Jesus is the only thing that damns one to hell, but the preacher didn't get to all nations, kindred, tribe, tongues (e.g. American Indians before Columbus how can these people be dammed if the only reason one goes to hell is rejecting the gospel and they never heard it? Wouldn't this logically lead you to conclude they go to hell for something else (i.e. their sin)? And if that is so, that means Christ didn't atone, pay ransom, etc for their sins, does it?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother DHK,

One final dodged question I post for you giving you another opportunity to answer. I will post a thread on all these question on Tuesday if I don't receive answers.

Originally Posted by BrotherJoseph View Post
Brother DHK,

I bought up separate classes of people such as infants dying in infancy, the mentally handicap, and aborted infants and I believe these are all atoned for and born again in the same manner as everyone. "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they." (Acts 15:11). For example, I have no problem with the scripture that John the Baptist had the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb. However as you believe in gospel regeneration, how do you believe these people (infants dying in infancy, the mentally handicap, etc) are born again? Aren't you the one who thus has to invent a "different way" or do you believe these people can understand and believe a gospel preacher, if so, what scripture do you have to prove this?
Brother Joe

 

[SovereignGrace]

I expounded this verse for you earlier showing you which each phrase means.
Let's look at it again, and some of the major differences.

First Peter is addressing false teachers, those that already were not saved. That is the major difference here. I am addressing those that are saved; Peter was not. They were false teachers that had infiltrated the church--unsaved false teachers.

Secondly, they were teaching what the KJV says are "damnable heresies" but other translations more literally and correctly translate as "destructive heresies." The doctrine was destructive. Young's translation translates "heresy" as "sects" and that is what the root of the word is. Like the Pharisees, Saducces, or Gnosics, Calvinism is considered as "sect," a destructive one. I can't tell you how many churches I have seen divided by the teachings of Calvinism. It has literally destroyed them.

The last phrase: has more of the meaning of "spiritual ruin," but swift or quick. When Calvinism sets into a church often the spiritual ruin of that church will happen quickly. It will stunt the growth of that church. The believers will become as the believers in Corinth--carnal, giving into immorality, drunkenness, taking one another to court, etc. Their spiritual life will be brought to "ruins" which doesn't mean they will lose their salvation.
However, the phrase goes back to the one bringing in the doctrine. They will be the ones responsible for this chaos and will stand before God and give account for it.

(YLT) And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction,

(WNT) But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be teachers of falsehood among you also, who will cunningly introduce fatal divisions, disowning even the Sovereign Lord who has redeemed them, and bringing on themselves swift destruction.

Okay, I am a Calvinist. I deny unlimited atonement. You say that teaching is a 'damnable heresy'. You say that Calvinism leads to as you typed it 'carnal, giving into immorality, drunkenness.' Now, if I believe in a 'damnable heresy', teach people about this 'damnable heresy', then how can I, being a 'damnable heretic' be saved?

You speak out of both sides of your mouth plus with a double tongue. You, in a thinly-veiled fashion, are calling me lost, but you have not the 'testicular fortitude' to type it out.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

The Puritans?

Yes, Brother DHK. You said in your thread the beliefs in the doctrines of grace leads to sinful lives. The Puritans I admit had their flaws by burning witches and persecuting Baptists, but they tried to live a Godly lifestyle and this nobody can deny. To charge them with living grossly fleshly sinful lifestyles is not in line with what history records of these people Please take time to read the below taken from Wikipedia

""The idea of personal Biblical interpretation, while central to Puritan beliefs, was shared with most Protestants in general. Puritans sought both individual and corporate conformity to the teaching of the Bible, with moral purity pursued both down to the smallest detail, as well as ecclesiastical purity to the highest level. They believed that man existed for the glory of God, that his first concern in life was to do God's will and so to receive future happiness".[17]

Some strong religious beliefs common to Puritans had direct impacts on culture. Education was essential to the masses, so that they could read the Bible for themselves.

Puritans placed family at the center of their societies, as an organization to facilitate their devotion to God. Based on Biblical portrayals of Adam and Eve, Puritans believed that marriage represented one of the most fundamental human relationships rooted in procreation, love, and, most importantly, salvation.[27] According to Puritans, husbands were the spiritual head of the household, while women were to demonstrate religious piety and obedience under male authority.[28] Furthermore, marriage represented not only the relationship between husband and wife, but also the relationship between spouses and God. Puritan husbands commanded authority through family direction and prayer. The female relationship to her husband and to God was marked by submissiveness and humility.[29]

Puritans believed wives to be spiritual equals to their husbands. Puritan author Thomas Gataker describes Puritan marriage as:


... together for a time as copartners in grace here, [that] they may reigne together forever as coheires in glory hereafter.[30]

The paradox created by female inferiority in the public sphere and the spiritual equality of men and women in marriage, then, gave way to the informal authority of women concerning matters of the home and childrearing.[31] With the consent of their husbands, Puritan wives made important decisions concerning the labour of their children, property, and the management of inns and taverns owned by their husbands.[32]

For Puritans, motherhood represented the most significant aspect of the female identity. Pious Puritan mothers laboured for their children's righteousness and salvation,

According to Puritans, children entered the world with the stain of original sin. A child could only be redeemed through religious education and obedience. Girls carried the additional burden of Eve's corruption and were catechised separately from boys at adolescence. Boys' education prepared them for vocations and leadership roles, while girls were educated for domestic and religious purposes. The pinnacle of achievement for children in Puritan society, however, occurred with the conversion process.[33]

Puritans thrust paternal caretaking responsibilities upon masters in relation to their servants. Puritans viewed the relationship between master and servant similarly to that of parent and child. Just as parents were expected to uphold Puritan religious values in the home, masters assumed the parental responsibility of housing and educating young servants. Older servants also dwelt with masters and were cared for in the event of illness or injury.

Besides the Bible, children needed to read to "understand ... the capital laws of this country," as the Massachusetts code declared, order being of the utmost importance, and children not taught to read would grow "barbarous" (the 1648 amendment to the Massachusetts law and the 1650 Connecticut code, both used the word "barbarisme"). By the 1670s, all New England colonies (except Rhode Island) had passed legislation that mandated literacy for children. In 1647, Massachusetts passed a law that required towns to hire a schoolmaster to teach writing


The Puritan spirit in the United States[edit]

Alexis de Tocqueville suggested in Democracy in America that Puritanism was the very thing that provided a firm foundation for American democracy. As Sheldon Wolin puts it, "Tocqueville was aware of the harshness and bigotry of the early colonists". However, on the other hand, he saw them as "archaic survivals, not only in their piety and discipline but in their democratic practices".[48] The theme of a religious basis of economic discipline is echoed in sociologist Max Weber's work, but both de Tocqueville and Weber argued that this discipline was not a force of economic determinism, but one factor among many that should be considered when evaluating the relative economic success of the Puritans."


Sounds as if these people who believed in the 5 points of grace lead real sinful lives as you would expect, right Brother DHK?



Brother Joe