The Children whom God hath given me

[BrotherJoseph]

The Great Commission commanded by Christ and repeated in every gospel and in the Book of Acts. Yet you say the Great Commission given by the command of Christ is ineffective when compared to the philosophy of Calvin. And you expect me to believe this?

Your belief:
"The 5 points of the doctrines of grace do not have this problem, are logical, and also conform to a uniform interpretation of scripture."

My belief:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The five points of Calvinism do not solve the problem of the Great Commission one iota. They may deny them; but they don't solve them.

Brother DHK,


The great commission you quote in Matthew 28:19-20, was it not given to the apostles or was it given to you in those verses? This command was to the apostles and the Scriptures make it abundantly clear that the apostles did indeed fulfill this command. Several years after the command was given, the apostle Paul reported that the gospel had come into "all the world" (Col. 1:6) and had been "preached to every creature which is under heaven" (Col. 1:23)." Also, when Christ placed this "great commission" upon His apostles, He promised them that great signs and wonders would accompany the fulfilling of this commission. These signs would be in the form of special apostolic powers, such as the ability to cast out demons and the ability to drink any sort of deadly poison and remain unharmed (Mark 16:17-18). The fact that these special powers are no longer with us is a further proof that the "great commission" has been fulfilled.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[DHK]

Quote:
This preaching the gospel to all only damns more people per your theology

__________________
Brother DHK,

My statement above wasn't in line with the Bible because I was following your faulty doctrines to its logical conclusions. You have said countless times on this thread that men do not go to Hell because not because of their sins, but rather for rejecting the gospel. We can probably both agree more people do not believe the gospel than believe it, thus when you preach the gospel, if your theory is correct you are damning more people than you are saving aren't you? For the fourth time I ask, wouldn't we all be better of by your logic if the gospel was never preached, therefore nobody would be damned for rejecting Christ? This isn't Bible theology, my theology, but yours that you have repeated constantly on this thread-that is that those who go to Hell do so for rejecting the gift of the offer of Christ and not for their sin as Christ has paid the ransom and penalty for it.

It is not a matter of:
My theology vs. your theology,
My theory vs. your theory,
My gospel vs. your gospel, etc.

The question simply must be asked what does the Bible say irrespective of one's own biases or unanswered questions. We all have questions that will remain unanswered until we get to heaven.
It is not a matter of logic, rather what does the Bible command; what is God's plan for mankind?

I have said some things countless of times, in that you are right.
One, is that every believer of every age is responsible to obey the Great Commission. That is our obligation: To go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Disobedience of that command will result in lost souls.

It seems that Calvinism throws sola fide out the window at this point and because of the hardened view of predetermined in Predestination is so extreme that it makes God the Great Puppeteer and all mankind His puppets. There is no free will. Man can't choose salvation; it is forced upon him. It is predetermined from the beginning of time, just as the non-elect are predestined for the lake of fire from the beginning of time. No amount of the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the exposition of the Gospel could cause him to believe for it is predetermined for him to go to hell.

But contrary to the above, there is a response to the Great Commission.
When the apostles preached those that they preached to had to decide, and it was their decision--to believe or not to believe; to receive or to reject Christ as Lord and Saviour. There was no one elected to damnation. If they rejected Christ they chose of their own accord to reject Christ. People are in hell today because they choose to reject Christ.

That is the clear teaching of God's Word. It not only comes from the Great Commission, but from John 3:16-18; 3:36; 5:24; Acts 10:43; 16:30-31; Rom.10:9-10; Mark 16:15; and so many other scriptures.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; he that believeth not shall be damned.
It does not say "he who is not elected shall be damned," but rather, "he who believes not shall be damned." It is called sola fide, something the Reformers also believed in, but conveniently forgotten about these days.
It seems that the contemporary Reformers have an unhealthy emphasis on the sovereignty of God, so much so to the diminishing of many of the other attributes of God, and possibly to the exclusion of the love of God.

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK,


The great commission you quote in Matthew 28:19-20, was it not given to the apostles or was it given to you in those verses? This command was to the apostles and the Scriptures make it abundantly clear that the apostles did indeed fulfill this command. Several years after the command was given, the apostle Paul reported that the gospel had come into "all the world" (Col. 1:6) and had been "preached to every creature which is under heaven" (Col. 1:23)." Also, when Christ placed this "great commission" upon His apostles, He promised them that great signs and wonders would accompany the fulfilling of this commission. These signs would be in the form of special apostolic powers, such as the ability to cast out demons and the ability to drink any sort of deadly poison and remain unharmed (Mark 16:17-18). The fact that these special powers are no longer with us is a further proof that the "great commission" has been fulfilled.

God bless,

Brother Joe

Let's consider that in an actual historical context.
For example, what about Ephesus?

In the Book of Acts Paul called the elders of the church at Ephesus to him.
Act 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
--He testified to them how he had labored among them.

Act 20:19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
Act 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house.

He told them of their responsibility:
Act 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

He warns them of false teachers:
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
--This was probably in the early 60's.

Now, more than 30 years later Christ addresses the same church:
Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

He tells them what he has against them:
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

The solution:
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
--He gave the solution or remedy, but he also gave a warning and a judgment.

What happenend? In a matter of decades the church of Ephesus ceased to be. When Islam came upon the scene it took over where the church supposedly existed. But now it is an empty wasteland where nothing grows.

The Apostles didn't reach all the world. Even Paul admits to that.
Paul's statement refutes Col.1:6, which you have taken out of context.

Rom 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:
Paul wrote during his first imprisonment in Rom to the Colossians 60-62 A.D.
It is believed that he was freed and traveled afterward even as far as Spain as he desired to do.

Rom 15:23 But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you;
Rom 15:24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.

Paul did not go where others had already been.
The Colossians had not yet been to Spain.
That is where Paul purposed to go.
You reasoning is fallacious.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Come on DHK, you can answer this below.

Okay, I am a Calvinist. I deny unlimited atonement. You say that teaching is a 'damnable heresy'. You say that Calvinism leads to as you typed it 'carnal, giving into immorality, drunkenness.' Now, if I believe in a 'damnable heresy', teach people about this 'damnable heresy', then how can I, being a 'damnable heretic' be saved?

You speak out of both sides of your mouth plus with a double tongue. You, in a thinly-veiled fashion, are calling me lost, but you have not the 'testicular fortitude' to type it out.

 

[SovereignGrace]

One, is that every believer of every age is responsible to obey the Great Commission.

Yes!!

That is our obligation: To go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Disobedience of that command will result in lost souls.

Yes!! Eph. 1:13, Rom. 1:16, I Cor. 1:18-21, I Cor. 15:10,11, Matt. 28:19,20, & Mark 16:15,16*(some manuscripts do not have vss 9-20).

There is no free will.

Yes!!

Man can't choose salvation; it is forced upon him.

This is where the wheels of your understanding fall off. People are dead in transgressions and sins.[Eph. 2:1] Dead people can not respond to the gospel. Look at it like this. Your are on the operating table having open heart surgery, when your heart stops. They then start CPR, such as massaging your heart, giving you epinephrine & sodium bicarbonate. In all of this, what could you do? You could not stop them from doing CPR on you because you are dead. You, being dead in transgressions and sins, have not whit to do with your 'birth from above'. God does this and it acts as a 'Spiritual CPR' that brings you back to life. I stated 'back to life', because we lost that life when Adam sinned, and he acting on behalf of the whole human race. What we lost in Adam, we regained in Christ.

It is predetermined from the beginning of time, just as the non-elect are predestined for the lake of fire from the beginning of time.

This is where you view of election and predestination is faulty. The elect were chosen in Christ from the creation/from before the creation, of the world. God chose to give the elect to Christ to atone for their sins. The goats, He left them in their fallen state. The sheep were predestined, the goats left alone.

No amount of the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the exposition of the Gospel could cause him to believe for it is predetermined for him to go to hell.

Again, no one was predetermined for hell. You have a cruel view of God here.

There was no one elected to damnation.

Yes, this is correct!!

If they rejected Christ they chose of their own accord to reject Christ.

The natural man will always reject Christ. That is why we sin. The outwardly man still lives in the realms of sin. That is all he knows. The soul of man has been made 'white as snow' by the blood of the Lamb slain from the creation of the world.

People are in hell today because they choose to reject Christ.

What about those who never heard the gospel or heard of His precious name? I gave you a link to John Eliot and how when he went to North America in the 1630's, the native Indians had no bibles and he preached the gospel to them. He even made the first bible in North America. Those who died just days prior to his arrival, how could they learn and come to Christ when there was no one to preach the gospel to them or to have a bible to read?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Paul did not go where others had already been.
The Colossians had not yet been to Spain.
That is where Paul purposed to go.

Thank you for proving mine and BrotherJoseph's point.


Now, the Colossians had not yet been to Spain at that time. What happened to those Spainards who died before hearing the gospel? Did they go to hell for their sins or on account of rejecting Christ? How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?[Rom. 10:14] They could not call upon Christ if they had never heard of Him, and they went to hell on account of their sins, and not rejecting Christ, the One they never heard about. Case. Closed.

Thank you for making this easier.

 

[kyredneck]

.... That is our obligation: To go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Disobedience of that command will result in lost souls......

So, slacking soul winners now sends folks to hell? Not only is there no heavier burden that could be placed upon us, but this is an outright horrendous lie. Not even the saints under the yoke of the law had any such burden placed upon them.

28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Mt 11

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So, slacking soul winners now sends folks to hell? Not only is there no heavier burden that could be placed upon us, but this is an outright horrendous lie. Not even the saints under the yoke of the law had any such burden placed upon them.

28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Mt 11

Nobody send anyone to hell but those who (for whatever reason) are enemies of Christ. But we CAN but try to help them understand the person of Christ our Lord & Savior....however its really the HS that convinces. We are but humble instruments towards that purpose. Praise God.

 

[Van]

Van your argument is not Scriptural. You use the term "our faith" and Hebrews uses "A" faith. Ephesians speaks of the believers' faith as coming from, by, "through" God who is demonstrating God's favor upon the undeserving.

"Our faith" is a uselessness. Just as the young man when asked by Christ said, "I believe, help my unbelief." At least he recognized that, no matter how "righteous" he could determine for himself, it would never be sufficient to appease God.

More taint so, disconnected from reality.

1) Then He touched their eyes, saying, “It shall be done to you according to your faith.”

2) Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.

3) And He *said to them, “Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

4) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.

5) But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

6) and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.

Bottom line, once again it has been shown that the claims of Calvinism have no basis in scripture.

Ephesians 2:1-3 precludes the sins of the Elect were removed the instant Christ died. 2 Peter 2:1 precludes Christ died only for the elect, as a person headed for destruction was bought by His blood.

Romans 5:1-2 preclude the Calvinist claim we obtain faith through irresistible grace, and establishes our faith in Christ provides our access to the grace in which we stand.

 

[kyredneck]

Nobody send anyone to hell...

Read carefully what DHK wrote:

.... That is our obligation: To go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Disobedience of that command will result in lost souls......

 

[revmwc]

This is where the wheels of your understanding fall off. People are dead in transgressions and sins.[Eph. 2:1] Dead people can not respond to the gospel. Look at it like this. Your are on the operating table having open heart surgery, when your heart stops. They then start CPR, such as massaging your heart, giving you epinephrine & sodium bicarbonate. In all of this, what could you do? You could not stop them from doing CPR on you because you are dead. You, being dead in transgressions and sins, have not whit to do with your 'birth from above'. God does this and it acts as a 'Spiritual CPR' that brings you back to life. I stated 'back to life', because we lost that life when Adam sinned, and he acting on behalf of the whole human race. What we lost in Adam, we regained in Christ.

It would seem from this statement that Paul was a liar to you.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Believers were quickened that is made alive who were "DEAD" yet you say
"Dead people can not respond to the gospel." Paul clearly says all believers were made alive that was after faith not before.

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith quickens a person when does Faith occur? When the Holy spirit Convicts and the person responds.

Paul told the Colossians:

Colossians 2:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Through faith we were buried with Him in Baptism and we were raised with Him from the dead, having been dead in sins, he quickened us together with Christ. But wait you say "Dead people can not respond to the gospel." Either your belief is incorrect or you believe Paul to be a liar so which is it, Is you doctrine wrong or is Paul a liar?

 

[SovereignGrace]

It would seem from this statement that Paul was a liar to you.

Believers were quickened that is made alive who were "DEAD" yet you say
"Dead people can not respond to the gospel." Paul clearly says all believers were made alive that was after faith not before.

Faith quickens a person when does Faith occur? When the Holy spirit Convicts and the person responds.

Paul told the Colossians:



Through faith we were buried with Him in Baptism and we were raised with Him from the dead, having been dead in sins, he quickened us together with Christ. But wait you say "Dead people can not respond to the gospel." Either your belief is incorrect or you believe Paul to be a liar so which is it, Is you doctrine wrong or is Paul a liar?

Dead people have dead faith. Faith by itself is dead without good works. Unregenerate people can not produce good works.

 

[Van]

You are confused about "the Lord that bought them" with the state of salvation of the false prophets. These are not saved but "FALSE PROPHETS" that have no proof that they represent God (just as false prophets in the OT). That is what Peter is referencing. He is stating that they deny the purchase ability of God.

Read the whole of Peter in that light and the passage becomes clear and aligned with the balance of Scripture.

If one doesn't, then all sorts of problems leading away from sound doctrine tend to detour the truth.

The "Lord that bought them" is directed to the church folks - those saved, who are being attached by schemes the false prophets generate because of the message may even include a denial of the Lord. Think of Peter's experience the night he warmed himself - did he not deny Christ? Was Peter not rebuked by Paul for his denial of Christ by his actions in the gentile church when Jews showed up? Peter understands the underbelly of denial and rebuke.

Once again the Calvinist claim is scripture that conflicts with Calvinism does not mean what it says.

1) First a strawman obfuscation, no one said the false prophet was saved!! Did anyone claim they represented God? Nope, so more obfuscation.

2) Next, we get read the whole of Peter and thus the verse does not mean what it says. LOL

3) All sorts of scriptural passages lead away from the unsound and mistaken claims of Calvinism. None lead toward the TULI.

4) The Master who bought them is directed not toward believers but toward the false prophets.

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Folks, Calvinism cannot be defended from scripture. Christ died for all mankind, those saved and will be saved, and those unsaved and headed for destruction. He became the propitiation or means of salvation for all mankind. 1 John 2:2. He tasted death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9. He laid down His life as a ransom for all. 1 Timothy 2:6.

 

[kyredneck]

Nobody send anyone to hell...

Read carefully what DHK wrote:

.... That is our obligation: To go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Disobedience of that command will result in lost souls......

His 'great commission' of the church is to populate heaven; to persuade goats to become sheep, to change tares into wheat. This is one of the greatest fallacies of radical evangelism, to change the church from a 'sheep feeding' institution into a 'sheep making' one.

 

[revmwc]

Brother Revmwc,

So let me get this straight, after Jesus resurrected, but prior to the arrival of European missionaries, there were American Indians who did not know who Jesus was, and died this way, but nevertheless went to eternal glory? Wouldn't this contradict your proof text , "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already..." (John 3:18)? Can you give me one example from scripture of a New Testament Christian who died without ever knowing who Jesus was?

Also, I'll ask for the third post my question that went unanswered-If unbelief in the preached gospel is what damns one to Hell, wouldn't we all be better off if the gospel was not preached? Moreover, isn't the gospel then actually damning more people to Hell, then it is saving, as the majority of people don't even believe it?The World Factbook gives the population as 7,095,217,980 (July 2013 est.) and the distribution of religions as Christian 31.50% (of which Roman Catholic 16.85%, Protestant 6.15%, Orthodox 3.96%, Anglican 1.26%), Muslim 23.20% (of which Sunni 75-90%, Shia 10-20%, Ahmadi 1%), Hindu 13.8%, Buddhist 6.77%, Sikh 0.35%, Jewish 0.22%, Baha'i 0.11%, other religions 10.95%, non-religious 9.66%, atheists 2.01% (2010 est.Thus per the statistics above and your belief that everyone on earth dies having heard the gospel, at least 68.5% of the world is damned due to unbelief in the gospel, wouldn't these folks be better off had the gospel never been preached to them? I guess the gospel saves about 30% and damns about 70% in your system, yet you still classify Jesus's mission as a "success"? I think you should just stop preaching the gospel as you are probably damning more people to Hell than you are saving due to their unbelief.

Also, for the second time I will post my other question, what about the mentally handicap, infants dying in infancy, and those aborted unable to understand and believe the gospel as preached by man, do they all go to hell? If not, how do they get to heaven, do you have a separate means of salvation outside of the gospel for these people, if so, what scriptures can you provide to support it?


Brother Joe

You seem to believe that from Adam to the time Jesus died not one single person was saved. Because as you see it one must believe on Christ. What I have said and continue to say is that those people who in remote areas and could never have heard of Jesus, such as the American Indians were, but were/are looking for a savior in Faith believe He is coming are saved as the O.T. beleiver's were.

Acts shows people who had not belived on Christ but were saved,

Acts 19:
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

How were they saved? "They should believe on him which should come" that let's us know those folks were saved then they were told of Jesus and the Holy Spirit indwelt and filled them. What saved them? Faith in the Savior to come. We believe in the savior who has come because we have heard about Him.

The same with those who you ask haven't heard about Christ. The peoples groups scattered at Babel had been told of the savior to come, told how Adam and Eve were created, told of the flood of Noah and therefore some had believed. Therefore the remnant would continue to tell others about the coming savior. God through this age and now new modes of travel has been able to send word of Jesus to some who were looking for the savior and others who had heard and not believed. God in His Omnipotence has not let people who would believe go without hearing His word.

Paul made it clear God is not without a witness to all people:

Acts 14:15-17
15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:
16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.
17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

"God has not left Himself with witness" those who were scattered knew of God and savior to come.

Genesis 11:
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

Were there people who believed in a savior was coming in these groups of people?

If so did that not save them?

If they were saved would they not have told others a savior was coming?

"God has not left Himself with witness" so would not all peoples groups have a witness from God?

 

[Van]

Dead people have dead faith. Faith by itself is dead without good works. Unregenerate people can not produce good works.

Typical obfuscation. When a spiritually dead person puts their worthless faith in Christ, it is God who credits that worthless faith as righteousness or not. Thus our faith provides our access to God's saving grace, but God alone either accepts or rejects our worthless filthy rag faith.

 

[revmwc]

Dead people have dead faith. Faith by itself is dead without good works. Unregenerate people can not produce good works.

But all mankind is dead until they place their Faith in the Savior, all believers were dead Spiritually dead in Trespasses and sins and had to be born Spiritually that made Spiritually alive by Faith.

1 Corinthians 2:
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Spiritual discernment cannot occur until one is Spiritually born and no one is spiritually born until they place their faith in the Savior. So all men are Dead and by your scenario no one can be saved.

 

[revmwc]

Read carefully what DHK wrote:



His 'great commission' of the church is to populate heaven; to persuade goats to become sheep, to change tares into wheat. This is one of the greatest fallacies of radical evangelism, to change the church from a 'sheep feeding' institution into a 'sheep making' one.

Matthew 22:
8 "Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests."

Matthew 28:
18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations" what do we teach? The Gospel message of the Savior, they cannot discern Spiritual things until they are saved. Then verse 20 once they are saved we are to teach them Scripture. First salvation and who will reach them if not the church?


kyredneck you say "to change the church from a 'sheep feeding' institution into a 'sheep making' one." Jesus told the church to go and teach people the Gospel so they might be saved, I know His teaching is radical to some but His intent was for the church to be both a sheep making and sheep feeding church. That is each and every believer as a member of the church in the age we live is to win souls and then they come to the place of worship we call a church to grow. Soul winning should be first and foremost a one on one work but some are saved in the church too because not just feeding the flock is to take place but the presenting of the gospel to ensure those who are in the church building have believed on Christ.

 

[DHK]

So, slacking soul winners now sends folks to hell? Not only is there no heavier burden that could be placed upon us, but this is an outright horrendous lie. Not even the saints under the yoke of the law had any such burden placed upon them.

28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Mt 11

It is not a yoke; it is a delight.
It is not a burden; it is joy.
It is not labor but responsibility.

Even Israel, who failed so much in their responsibility to the world had the same:
Eze 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

What makes you think God will not require their blood (the unsaved of those that you could have reached) at your hand?

Paul said: (first about the Judgment Seat of Christ)
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

And then immediately after he says this:
2 Corinthians 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
--It will be a terrible day for many who are not preaching the gospel to the lost with the intent of bringing them into the kingdom simply because they believe in the wrong theology.

They tried to dissuade and stop William Carey from being a missionary with the same theology that you are spouting off here, but thank God Carey never listened. He went on to be a missionary, won thousands to the Lord, and translated the Bible into some 40 plus different languages.
Carey, overhearing someone at a dinner, remarking snidely that he was only a shoemaker, spoke up, and humbly repled, "Oh no sir, I was just a cobbler."

 

[DHK]

What he means is that if the only reason people go to hell is by rejecting the gospel, what happens to those who died never hearing it? Quit being this way, mon ami. The Lord doesn't like it when you act out in this fashion.

I act in the fashion of quoting the Word of God.
One way to heaven--through Christ (John 14:6)
One responsibility of the believer and the church--the Great Commission (Mark 16:15; Mat.28:19,20).
One response needed by the unbeliever: "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31)

Contrary to this the Calvinist thinks that he can go behind the back of God, read God's mind and decrees even to the degree of what was thinking before the world ever began. He inserts his logic, reasoning and philosophy, of which he has no scriptural background.
The philosophical questions that have been posed on this board, especially on this thread, are ones I have heard posed by skeptics and agnostics (sadly).

What about those who have never heard, will never hear?
What about those who will die as infants or mentally incapacitated?
What about those to whom Israel never reached?
What about those to whom first century Christians never reached?
And the list goes on.

The above is all human reasoning to avoid the simple and direct commands of the Bible, especially the command of the Great Commission which has never been rescinded. It is our obligation to take the gospel into all the world and to preach this message to every creature whether or not we like it. If you don't like that prospect, then perhaps you should take a good long look in the mirror:

Examine yourself to see whether or not you are in the faith.

A true believer knows no bounds when it comes to sharing the joy of the faith, that is the salvation, that God has freely given him after paying so great a debt.