Featured Gospel regeneration

BrotherSovereign,

I am glad we can both agree Cornelius was regenerated prior to Peter preaching to him.I think we need to define the gospel in order to determine if Cornelius had heard it prior to Peter's arrival. Thankfully to define this, we don't have to rely upon my opinion or yours (both of which may be bias), but the Bible defines what the gospel is. Paul writes, "15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). There is nothing in the text you gave me that indicates Cornelius heard of Jesus's resurrection. This is a key part of the gospel according to Paul and if you omit it, it is not the gospel fo "if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain" (1 Corinthians 15:14). Notice what the text says, "40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people..." (Acts 10:40-42). This passage explicitly says the risen Jesus was not shown openly "to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drive with him after he rose from the dead" (i.e. the apostles) and of this Peter says Christ "commanded us to preach unto the people". This is exactly what Peter was telling Cornelius that he did not know because it wasn't shown openly "to all the people, but unto the witnesses".

Now, I made several other points in my prior posts, but you only responded to this one. Now that I have responded to two of your posts and addressed every point you made in all of them, when you have time if you could please go back and respond to the points I made in this post and my prior posts to you. Thanks and God bless.

Brother Joe

 

Brother Sov,

Thanks for taking time to reply to my points.

I have provided you six examples, three of whom are very key Bible figures- Abraham, John the Baptist, and David. Both Abraham and David are very significant because I believe they are the only two examples Paul gave in Romans 4 to put forth the doctrine of justification by faith alone. Abraham is mentioned in Romans 4:1-3 as an example and David in Romans 4:6. The other examples I provided is Cornelius, Lydia, and Apollos (you never rebutted him). You didn't address my rebuttal to your assertion that Cornelius had heard the gospel prior to Peter's arrival. Please reply to this post # 21 as you have time.

If you concede that Abraham and John the Baptist were regenerated outside the gospel, independent of means, why is it not possible all believers are?

Yes, there is still a need for the gospel even though God doesn't use it to regenerate. "...our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Timothy 1:10). Notice what the gospel does, the verse does not say it "brings life and immortality", but rather it brings "life and immortality to light". In other words, these things are already there. Faith in the gospel is the means God chooses to reveal to his Child that he was justified by blood and thus allows them to rejoice in the knowledge of their legal justification by blood in their experience in this life. This is the purpose of the gospel. This is experiential. In short, when a born again person trusts solely in Christ's power to raise the dead, that faith is "counted unto him" for righteousness. The reality of being redeemed (justified by blood) is understood by the believer. That person, upon believing, experiences peace with God (Romans 5:1).

This position I am taking in regards to the gospel is also the position that some notable Baptists in the past have taken. Mainly, William Kiffen a signer of The London Baptist Confession of faith of both 1644 and 1689 wrote, "That the Scripture holds forth justification by faith in a sense is very clear, but yet under no other consideration, but by way of evidence, Heb. 11:1, 2. As it respects the taking away of sin from off the Conscience: For indeed the debt is paid by the blood of Christ alone, and we are therefore said to be justified by His blood, Rom. 5:9. For indeed, as Christ Jesus our Lord has paid the debt, "The Lord having laid upon him the iniquities of us all," so does He declare this satisfaction and acceptation of us in Christ by faith. Faith is the eye of the understanding whereby the soul comes to see the great things which God the Father has prepared for them who love Him. " (Quote taken from Article Justification By Christ Alone by Samuel Richardson http://www.mountzionpbc.org/Index/index08.htm ) It is a very good writing if you ever have the time to read it, I would recommend it.

Another famous Baptist who held this view of the gospel's purpose toward the end of his life is John Gill (He believed in gospel regeneration early in his life, but switched his view toward the end). Toward the end of his life he wrote,"In his Body of divinity, which was his last work, written a number of years later than his commentary, he says:

“This instrumentality of the word in regeneration seems not so agreeable to the principle of grace implanted in the soul in regeneration and to be understood in respect to that, since it is done by immediate infusion and is represented as a creation; and now as God made no use of any instrument in the first and old creation, so neither does it seem so agreeable that he should use any in. the new creation; wherefore, this is rather to be understood of the EXTERIOR of the principle of grace and the drawing it forth into act and exercise, which is excited and encouraged by the ministry of the word by which it appears that a man is born again. So the three thousand first converts and the jailor were FIRST regenerated, or had the principle of grace wrought in their souls by the Spirit of God, and then were directed and encouraged by the ministry of the Apostles to repent and believe in Christ; whereby it becomes manifest that they were born again.” Volume 2, page 844.

In his Cause of God and Truth, page 180, Dr. Gill says: “There is want of spiritual consideration and attention in every man, until God opens his heart, by his powerful grace, as he did Lydia’s, to attend to the things which are spoken, or which regard his spiritual and eternal welfare. The parable of the seed sown shows that the hearts of unregenerate men are unfit and unprepared to receive the word, and therefore, it becomes unfruitful to them. And that it is only fruitful where it is received in an honest and good heart, made so by the Spirit and grace of God in regeneration; whence it follows, that regeneration is rather a preparation for the right hearing of the word than the hearing of the word is a preparation for regeneration.”

How do you reconcile your belief in gospel regeneration (I assume you would equate being justified by faith as the same thing as gospel regeneration) with the fact that scripture says in one place we are justified by His blood, "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:9), but in another place it says we are justified by faith, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" (Romans 5:1)"? They can't both be speaking of the same type of justification. If it be by blood that we were legally justified it was on the cross. The legal justification happened at Calvary, experimental justification happens at the time of belief in the gospel.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Sov,

I would assert this chapter it is about both of them, both a prophecy about Christ and what actually happened to David, to say otherwise would mean David was lying. I guess we have to agree to disagree. I have found that is what usually happens the most on Baptist Board.

Being taught by God and being taught by the preacher are two different things. The scripture very plainly makes the distinguishment here, "...After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me..." (Jeremiah 31:33-34)

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" (John 5:25) and "To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out." (John 10:3), and "And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." (John 10:4) "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd" (John 10:16), and "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John 10:27) A preacher can speak the words of Jesus, but only Jesus can use His voice.

The bible, and the preaching of it falls upon deaf ears of those who are unregenerate. However, those who have been quickened via the regenerative power of the Spirit, it is The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.[John 6:63] And also Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.[John 5:25] Then there is Give ear and come to me; listen, that you may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David.[Isa. 55:3] ][/QUOTE]

The words Jesus spoke are full of Spirit and life. He spoke into existence the creation by his word, but if you or I tried to use the same words to create something it would not work. Also, I asked this for, but did not receive a reply, if as you assert the gospel has a life giving regenerative power, why wouldn't that power regenerate all the hearers if they have the same nature prior to the new birth?


Again, it is of my opinion David was prophesying about Christ and not speaking of himself. But I do need to study this more in depth.

I am not debating the fact that God uses means to equip his saints. I agree with all that you have said in the above quote, but none of what you have said in the above quote proves your assertion that God uses means to regenerate dead sinners.

Notice those who hear already have ears to hear, they don't need to get the ears through the hearing (of the gospel). I said previously in a point that wen unanswered, faith is a fruit of the Spirit according to Galatians, therefore what comes first the tree that produces the fruit (i.e. the Spirit) or the fruit? Doesn't life have to precede action? You cannot have one believe until they first are alive to do so. How can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit as Christ said?

Revelation tells us plainly there will be saints from every kindred, tongue, people and nation. "... for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Revelation 5:9) and "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;" (Revelation 7:9).

Do you believe the gospel was preached to every kindred and people that ever lived or that some have died off before the gospel was ever preached? If the latter, how did they get regenerated if gospel regeneration is how God regenerates?


Brother Joe

 

If the gospel is the only way sinners are saved, I guess Abraham and John the Baptist were never regenerated as you already have conceded they had the Spirit before ever hearing of the gospel? Also, "if the gospel is the only way sinners are saved", you realize this damns to hell all the aborted, infants dying in infancy, and the mentally handicap unable to understand the gospel. This is not consistent with what we know of the nature of God. Also, how come David was confident he would see his infant son that died again, "23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." (2 Samuel 12:23)?

"Gospel of your salvation" simply means the "good news of your salvation". The gospel is a declaration of good news, that does not say the gospel produces salvation, as Paul says in Timothy it brings "life and immortality to light" (2 Timothy 1:10). As for the last part of the verse in regards to being sealed by the Spirit, I will refer to Elder Samuel Trott's articled titled The Sealing of The Spirit , "A being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, as an earnest or pledge of our inheritance. But as important a point as this is, in a believer’s experience, being designed to confine his hope in Christ of eternal salvation, we very seldom hear it noticed by persons in a relation of their experience, or by preachers in preaching experience. It is true that faith or believing is the more material point at which a person passes from death experimentally to life, he then hears the voice of the Son of God and lives. And belief, hope or trust in Christ immediately springs up in the breast. Hence believing is spoken of in the Scriptures as the distinguishing characteristic of a saved one. This sealing is, or once was, not essential to salvation, for none of the Old Testament saints enjoined this privilege, but were all their lifetime subject to bondage; as I shall have occasion again to notice. But still this sealing is too important a point in a believer’s exercise to be passed unnoticed in our preaching, or in our examination of ourselves whether we be in the faith; because where this seal is, it confirms the genuineness of our faith, and the certainty of our being the children of God."


Admittedly, that verse in Ephesians you gave is a difficult one. On the surface it does appear to support gospel regeneration, but it must be interpreted in what the majority of the Bible has to say in regards to regeneration, which to me makes clear regeneration precedes faith in the gospel. One can prove just about whatever doctrine they want through one verse in the Bible.

 

Thanks for the kind words brother KY!

 

No, but I can see how they are related.

 

Yes, I never thought about that before regarding Nathanael.