Gospel regeneration

[BrotherJoseph]

In regards to Cornelius:

Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him. “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name. ”While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.[Acts 10:34-48]


Cornelius had heard the gospel before he had been saved. Read carefully what I bolded.

BrotherSovereign,

I am glad we can both agree Cornelius was regenerated prior to Peter preaching to him.I think we need to define the gospel in order to determine if Cornelius had heard it prior to Peter's arrival. Thankfully to define this, we don't have to rely upon my opinion or yours (both of which may be bias), but the Bible defines what the gospel is. Paul writes, "15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). There is nothing in the text you gave me that indicates Cornelius heard of Jesus's resurrection. This is a key part of the gospel according to Paul and if you omit it, it is not the gospel fo "if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain" (1 Corinthians 15:14). Notice what the text says, "40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people..." (Acts 10:40-42). This passage explicitly says the risen Jesus was not shown openly "to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drive with him after he rose from the dead" (i.e. the apostles) and of this Peter says Christ "commanded us to preach unto the people". This is exactly what Peter was telling Cornelius that he did not know because it wasn't shown openly "to all the people, but unto the witnesses".

Now, I made several other points in my prior posts, but you only responded to this one. Now that I have responded to two of your posts and addressed every point you made in all of them, when you have time if you could please go back and respond to the points I made in this post and my prior posts to you. Thanks and God bless.

Brother Joe

 

[SovereignGrace]

BrotherSovereign,

I am glad we can both agree Cornelius was regenerated prior to Peter preaching.I think we need to define the gospel in order to determine if Cornelius had heard it prior to Peter's arrival. Thankfully to define this, we don't have to rely upon my opinion or yours (both of which may be bias), but the Bible defines what the gospel is. Paul writes, "15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). There is nothing in the text you gave me that indicates Cornelius heard of Jesus's resurrection. This is a key part of the gospel according to Paul and if you omit it, it is not the gospel fo "if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain" (1 Corinthians 15:14). Notice what the text says, "40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people..." (Acts 10:40-42). This passage explicitly says the risen Jesus was not shown openly "to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drive with him after he rose from the dead" (i.e. the apostles) and of this Peter says Christ "commanded us to preach unto the people". This is exactly what Peter was telling Cornelius that he did not know because it wasn't shown openly "to all the people, but unto the witnesses".

Now, I made several other points in my prior posts, but you only responded to this one. Now that I have responded to two of your posts, when you have time please go back and respond to the points I made in my prior posts to you. Thanks and God bless.

Brother Joe

I am on a tablet, so it is harder to respond in depth. When I get on a PC, I'll give you more 'meat'.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I think we can pull that part off brother!

That's great. You are ALWAYS civil.

Brother Sov,

Regarding Abraham, I believe he is a fair example to use to show how one is born again before they are justified by faith, after all, didn't Paul use him as his example in Romans?

Yes, I know your side loves to use Abram as your support. I agree he had been regenerated by God. But he is a 'one time example', and not to be used in your support, imo. That is why I threw in John the Baptist's experience. None of us were born with the indwelling of the Spirit. He was an 'on time example', imo.

In regards to John the Baptist having the Holy Ghost from him mother's womb, Jesus said, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit". (John 3:8)

Agree.

This verse tells us "every one that is born of the Spirit" is born in the same manner.

By the Spirit, yes. Outside the gospel, no.

Now I am not contending that everybody is born with the Spirit from the womb like John the Baptist, but simply that they are born in the same manner.

From above, yes. Outside the gospel, no.

How did John get the Spirit from his mother's womb? It must have been through a sovereign quickening without the use of means such as the gospel, therefore if it is in the same manner for "every one that is born of the Spirit" one cannot then say it was this way for John or Abraham, but it is this way for everyone else.

That is a bit of a stretch, imo. Just because John was filled with the Spirit in that manner, does not mean everyone is. Outside the gospel, I mean.

"But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they" (Acts 15:11). What scripture do you have to show that there are different ways of becoming born again? Also, what scriptures do you have the lead you to believe that Abram and John the Baptist were one time occurrences? Moreover, notice Jesus compares being born again to the wind that you cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes, however if gospel regeneration is true, how could this comparison to the wind be true because one would be able to pinpoint an exact time, date, and manner in which the received the Holy Spirit?

No need of the gospel if God does it all by Himself. Can He? Yes. But He uses the gospel.

Also, if you do not like simply using the examples of John the Baptist or Abraham, what about Cornelius and Apollos, do you believe they were born again prior to hearing the gospel preached to them in the book of Acts?


Brother Joe

I addressed Cornelius, I'll try to address Apollos later.

 

[SovereignGrace]

How did God make David TO, " hope when I was upon my mother's breasts." (Psalm 22:9)?

I could be wrong here and this is something I need to do a lot more studying on, but I will do my best to explain what David was expressing here.


This chapter to me is about Christ and not David. It appears to me that he is prophesying about the anguish Christ would go through as they were having Him on trial, tearing the beard from His face, plaiting a crown of thorns upon His head, spitting on Him, smacking Him and mocking Him and saying “Prophesy to us, Messiah. Who hit you?”.[Matt. 26:68] You can read such things as My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Jesus stated that on the cross. Then you can read “He trusts in the Lord,” they say, “let the Lord rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.” They mocked Him and shook their heads at Him while He was in anguish on the cross. Then there is I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. This was referencing to His crucifixion, too. Then there is this They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment. This was fulfilled when they did this while He was on the cross. So Psalms 22 is about Christ and not David, in my opinion, mon ami.

In the same manner he made David to Hope he can teach the person in the Congo to believe.

How are people taught about God? It is because It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.[John 6:45] Now, how are they taught about God? In the manner of How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?[Rom. 10:14] Now, God is the Source of our faith. But via what does it get transported through? It is such a manner as Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.[Rom. 10:17] The bible, and the preaching of it falls upon deaf ears of those who are unregenerate. However, those who have been quickened via the regenerative power of the Spirit, it is The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.[John 6:63] And also Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.[John 5:25] Then there is Give ear and come to me; listen, that you may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David.[Isa. 55:3]

He was hoping in something while yet in the womb, was it not in the Savior?

Again, it is of my opinion David was prophesying about Christ and not speaking of himself. But I do need to study this more in depth.

Those that are born again are taught of God through His Spirit sovereignly, "33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord..." (Jeremiah 31:33-34) Jesus said, "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (John 6:45).

God uses means to do this, and this is via Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.[1 Cor. 12:27-31] Then there is So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.[Eph. 4:11-16] God has placed in the local churches teachers how are ably equipped to help the younger Christians grow in the Christian faith and to continually feed the flock. God could teach everyone Himself, but He has chosen to do this through men He has chosen to work through.

Also Jesus said,"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" (John 5:25). He could not be talking about his return when the dead shall rise because he says the hour "now is". Therefore, the "dead" that "hear the voice of the Son of God" are the same dead that are spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1) and are quickened by the Spirit (Ephesians 2:1). A preacher can speak the words of Jesus, but cannot use His voice, only Jesus can use "His voice" and He said in John they will hear His voice.

Pay careful attention to that portion of John 5:25 where Christ said and has now come. He was there and the dead were hearing Him. The spiritually dead heard Him and were quickened by the Spirit of God. That is why you can read in many places Whoever has ears, let them hear.

One final point regarding the Congo example you gave and and I will move on. Revelation makes it clear in two places that there will be saints from every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. " for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9) and "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;" (Revelation 7:9). How can gospel regeneration be true if there are saints in every kindred, tongue, people, and nation, but yet we know the gospel did not reach all of these tribes simply based upon the fact alone that some died out prior to ever even getting a chance to hear the gospel?

It, the gospel, will go to the uttermost parts of the world and be proclaimed, yet many, sadly, will never hear it. It will be preached in Africa, yet it will not be claimed by all the ears of all of its inhabitants. It will go to all the ends of the earth, but not every ear will hear it.

In your fictional example, how do you prove that person wasn't regenerated minutes, a day, a week, or a month prior to hearing and having faith in the gospel? Your example does not prove your proposition of gospel regeneration. Also, Galatians tells us faith is a fruit of the Spirit, thus how can one produce faith in the gospel if they don't first have the Spirit in them that produces the fruit? What comes first the seed and tree that produces the fruit or the fruit?

God works via means, Bro. Joseph. These means are the gospel. I do not know when I was regenerated, let alone, anyone else. But according to God's holy writ, the gospel in the only way sinners are saved from their sins.

I'll suppose for a minute for arguments sake that what you are saying is true, i.e. the gospel is the means that regenerates. If it has such a power to produce it and everyone has the same nature from Adam, how come it doesn't produce regeneration in all that is preached to? Identical causes put on identical things would have identical effects wouldn't they not? The reason they don't in the case of the gospel is because God has already given a new heart to the one who believes it so they can receive it, but He hasn't to the one who does not believe it. This is seen here, "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." (Acts 16:14). Lydia was already born again because it states she "worshipped God", it didn't say "she worshipped an idol", also notice the Lord "opened" her heart first, then she "attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul".
God bless,

Brother Joe

It is God via the Spirit that quickens sinners into life. But it is via the gospel how this is worked out by God. I will leave you with this one last verse.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,[Eph. 1:13]

 

[savedbymercy]

sos

Did you understand the points I made in the posts?

Yes, thats how I know we dont agree ! I stated something entirely different from what you had stated ! That shows you must have read my post in a most Flippant manner !

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Yes, I know your side loves to use Abram as your support. I agree he had been regenerated by God. But he is a 'one time example', and not to be used in your support, imo. That is why I threw in John the Baptist's experience. None of us were born with the indwelling of the Spirit. He was an 'on time example', imo..

Brother Sov,

Thanks for taking time to reply to my points.

I have provided you six examples, three of whom are very key Bible figures- Abraham, John the Baptist, and David. Both Abraham and David are very significant because I believe they are the only two examples Paul gave in Romans 4 to put forth the doctrine of justification by faith alone. Abraham is mentioned in Romans 4:1-3 as an example and David in Romans 4:6. The other examples I provided is Cornelius, Lydia, and Apollos (you never rebutted him). You didn't address my rebuttal to your assertion that Cornelius had heard the gospel prior to Peter's arrival. Please reply to this post # 21 as you have time.

If you concede that Abraham and John the Baptist were regenerated outside the gospel, independent of means, why is it not possible all believers are?

No need of the gospel if God does it all by Himself. Can He? Yes. But He uses the gospel.

Yes, there is still a need for the gospel even though God doesn't use it to regenerate. "...our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Timothy 1:10). Notice what the gospel does, the verse does not say it "brings life and immortality", but rather it brings "life and immortality to light". In other words, these things are already there. Faith in the gospel is the means God chooses to reveal to his Child that he was justified by blood and thus allows them to rejoice in the knowledge of their legal justification by blood in their experience in this life. This is the purpose of the gospel. This is experiential. In short, when a born again person trusts solely in Christ's power to raise the dead, that faith is "counted unto him" for righteousness. The reality of being redeemed (justified by blood) is understood by the believer. That person, upon believing, experiences peace with God (Romans 5:1).

This position I am taking in regards to the gospel is also the position that some notable Baptists in the past have taken. Mainly, William Kiffen a signer of The London Baptist Confession of faith of both 1644 and 1689 wrote, "That the Scripture holds forth justification by faith in a sense is very clear, but yet under no other consideration, but by way of evidence, Heb. 11:1, 2. As it respects the taking away of sin from off the Conscience: For indeed the debt is paid by the blood of Christ alone, and we are therefore said to be justified by His blood, Rom. 5:9. For indeed, as Christ Jesus our Lord has paid the debt, "The Lord having laid upon him the iniquities of us all," so does He declare this satisfaction and acceptation of us in Christ by faith. Faith is the eye of the understanding whereby the soul comes to see the great things which God the Father has prepared for them who love Him. " (Quote taken from Article Justification By Christ Alone by Samuel Richardson http://www.mountzionpbc.org/Index/index08.htm ) It is a very good writing if you ever have the time to read it, I would recommend it.

Another famous Baptist who held this view of the gospel's purpose toward the end of his life is John Gill (He believed in gospel regeneration early in his life, but switched his view toward the end). Toward the end of his life he wrote,"In his Body of divinity, which was his last work, written a number of years later than his commentary, he says:

“This instrumentality of the word in regeneration seems not so agreeable to the principle of grace implanted in the soul in regeneration and to be understood in respect to that, since it is done by immediate infusion and is represented as a creation; and now as God made no use of any instrument in the first and old creation, so neither does it seem so agreeable that he should use any in. the new creation; wherefore, this is rather to be understood of the EXTERIOR of the principle of grace and the drawing it forth into act and exercise, which is excited and encouraged by the ministry of the word by which it appears that a man is born again. So the three thousand first converts and the jailor were FIRST regenerated, or had the principle of grace wrought in their souls by the Spirit of God, and then were directed and encouraged by the ministry of the Apostles to repent and believe in Christ; whereby it becomes manifest that they were born again.” Volume 2, page 844.

In his Cause of God and Truth, page 180, Dr. Gill says: “There is want of spiritual consideration and attention in every man, until God opens his heart, by his powerful grace, as he did Lydia’s, to attend to the things which are spoken, or which regard his spiritual and eternal welfare. The parable of the seed sown shows that the hearts of unregenerate men are unfit and unprepared to receive the word, and therefore, it becomes unfruitful to them. And that it is only fruitful where it is received in an honest and good heart, made so by the Spirit and grace of God in regeneration; whence it follows, that regeneration is rather a preparation for the right hearing of the word than the hearing of the word is a preparation for regeneration.”

How do you reconcile your belief in gospel regeneration (I assume you would equate being justified by faith as the same thing as gospel regeneration) with the fact that scripture says in one place we are justified by His blood, "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:9), but in another place it says we are justified by faith, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" (Romans 5:1)"? They can't both be speaking of the same type of justification. If it be by blood that we were legally justified it was on the cross. The legal justification happened at Calvary, experimental justification happens at the time of belief in the gospel.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[kyredneck]

:thumbsup: Another outstanding post brother.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

I could be wrong here and this is something I need to do a lot more studying on, but I will do my best to explain what David was expressing here.


This chapter to me is about Christ and not David. It appears to me that he is prophesying about the anguish Christ would go through as they were having Him on trial, tearing the beard from His face, plaiting a crown of thorns upon His head, spitting on Him, smacking Him and mocking Him and saying “Prophesy to us, Messiah. Who hit you?”.[Matt. 26:68] You can read such things as My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Jesus stated that on the cross. Then you can read “He trusts in the Lord,” they say, “let the Lord rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.” They mocked Him and shook their heads at Him while He was in anguish on the cross. Then there is I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. This was referencing to His crucifixion, too. Then there is this They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment. This was fulfilled when they did this while He was on the cross. So Psalms 22 is about Christ and not David, in my opinion, mon ami.]

Brother Sov,

I would assert this chapter it is about both of them, both a prophecy about Christ and what actually happened to David, to say otherwise would mean David was lying. I guess we have to agree to disagree. I have found that is what usually happens the most on Baptist Board.

How are people taught about God? It is because It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.[John 6:45] Now, how are they taught about God? In the manner of How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?[Rom. 10:14]]]

Being taught by God and being taught by the preacher are two different things. The scripture very plainly makes the distinguishment here, "...After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me..." (Jeremiah 31:33-34)

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" (John 5:25) and "To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out." (John 10:3), and "And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." (John 10:4) "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd" (John 10:16), and "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John 10:27) A preacher can speak the words of Jesus, but only Jesus can use His voice.

Now, God is the Source of our faith. But via what does it get transported through? It is such a manner as Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.[Rom. 10:17]]]

The bible, and the preaching of it falls upon deaf ears of those who are unregenerate. However, those who have been quickened via the regenerative power of the Spirit, it is The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.[John 6:63] And also Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.[John 5:25] Then there is Give ear and come to me; listen, that you may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David.[Isa. 55:3] ][/QUOTE]

The words Jesus spoke are full of Spirit and life. He spoke into existence the creation by his word, but if you or I tried to use the same words to create something it would not work. Also, I asked this for, but did not receive a reply, if as you assert the gospel has a life giving regenerative power, why wouldn't that power regenerate all the hearers if they have the same nature prior to the new birth?


Again, it is of my opinion David was prophesying about Christ and not speaking of himself. But I do need to study this more in depth.

God uses means to do this, and this is via Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.[1 Cor. 12:27-31] Then there is So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.[Eph. 4:11-16] God has placed in the local churches teachers how are ably equipped to help the younger Christians grow in the Christian faith and to continually feed the flock. God could teach everyone Himself, but He has chosen to do this through men He has chosen to work through. ]

I am not debating the fact that God uses means to equip his saints. I agree with all that you have said in the above quote, but none of what you have said in the above quote proves your assertion that God uses means to regenerate dead sinners.

Pay careful attention to that portion of John 5:25 where Christ said and has now come. He was there and the dead were hearing Him. The spiritually dead heard Him and were quickened by the Spirit of God. That is why you can read in many places Whoever has ears, let them hear.]

Notice those who hear already have ears to hear, they don't need to get the ears through the hearing (of the gospel). I said previously in a point that wen unanswered, faith is a fruit of the Spirit according to Galatians, therefore what comes first the tree that produces the fruit (i.e. the Spirit) or the fruit? Doesn't life have to precede action? You cannot have one believe until they first are alive to do so. How can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit as Christ said?

It, the gospel, will go to the uttermost parts of the world and be proclaimed, yet many, sadly, will never hear it. It will be preached in Africa, yet it will not be claimed by all the ears of all of its inhabitants. It will go to all the ends of the earth, but not every ear will hear it. ]]

Revelation tells us plainly there will be saints from every kindred, tongue, people and nation. "... for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Revelation 5:9) and "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;" (Revelation 7:9).

Do you believe the gospel was preached to every kindred and people that ever lived or that some have died off before the gospel was ever preached? If the latter, how did they get regenerated if gospel regeneration is how God regenerates?


Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

God works via means, Bro. Joseph. These means are the gospel. I do not know when I was regenerated, let alone, anyone else. But according to God's holy writ, the gospel in the only way sinners are saved from their sins.]

If the gospel is the only way sinners are saved, I guess Abraham and John the Baptist were never regenerated as you already have conceded they had the Spirit before ever hearing of the gospel? Also, "if the gospel is the only way sinners are saved", you realize this damns to hell all the aborted, infants dying in infancy, and the mentally handicap unable to understand the gospel. This is not consistent with what we know of the nature of God. Also, how come David was confident he would see his infant son that died again, "23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." (2 Samuel 12:23)?

It is God via the Spirit that quickens sinners into life. But it is via the gospel how this is worked out by God. I will leave you with this one last verse.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,[Eph. 1:13]

"Gospel of your salvation" simply means the "good news of your salvation". The gospel is a declaration of good news, that does not say the gospel produces salvation, as Paul says in Timothy it brings "life and immortality to light" (2 Timothy 1:10). As for the last part of the verse in regards to being sealed by the Spirit, I will refer to Elder Samuel Trott's articled titled The Sealing of The Spirit , "A being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, as an earnest or pledge of our inheritance. But as important a point as this is, in a believer’s experience, being designed to confine his hope in Christ of eternal salvation, we very seldom hear it noticed by persons in a relation of their experience, or by preachers in preaching experience. It is true that faith or believing is the more material point at which a person passes from death experimentally to life, he then hears the voice of the Son of God and lives. And belief, hope or trust in Christ immediately springs up in the breast. Hence believing is spoken of in the Scriptures as the distinguishing characteristic of a saved one. This sealing is, or once was, not essential to salvation, for none of the Old Testament saints enjoined this privilege, but were all their lifetime subject to bondage; as I shall have occasion again to notice. But still this sealing is too important a point in a believer’s exercise to be passed unnoticed in our preaching, or in our examination of ourselves whether we be in the faith; because where this seal is, it confirms the genuineness of our faith, and the certainty of our being the children of God."


Admittedly, that verse in Ephesians you gave is a difficult one. On the surface it does appear to support gospel regeneration, but it must be interpreted in what the majority of the Bible has to say in regards to regeneration, which to me makes clear regeneration precedes faith in the gospel. One can prove just about whatever doctrine they want through one verse in the Bible.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

:thumbsup: Another outstanding post brother.

Thanks for the kind words brother KY!

 

[kyredneck]

You ever make the connection between these two passages?:

29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Jn 1

 

[BrotherJoseph]

You ever make the connection between these two passages?:

29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Jn 1

No, but I can see how they are related.

 

[kyredneck]

That was Nathanael's state BEFORE having ever met Christ.

I think little tidbits like these can be very telling once the eye is looking for them.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

That was Nathanael's state BEFORE having ever met Christ.

I think little tidbits like these can be very telling once the eye is looking for them.

Yes, I never thought about that before regarding Nathanael.

 

[SovereignGrace]

sos



Yes, thats how I know we dont agree ! I stated something entirely different from what you had stated ! That shows you must have read my post in a most Flippant manner !

Don saw what I said was what you said. God regenerates via the gospel. Yes God does it, but it is while the gospel is being proclaimed.

 

[savedbymercy]

Don saw what I said was what you said. God regenerates via the gospel. Yes God does it, but it is while the gospel is being proclaimed.

It doesn't matter what Don said!

 

[SovereignGrace]

It doesn't matter what Don said!

Okay, here is a portion of the thread that I first responded in this thread:

Now, then there is How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? I will use Joanie in America. She has been raised around Christians her whole life, yet she is living a life of debauchery. She has multiple partners, abuses drugs, thumbs her nose at the government, is liberal to the core, supporting gun control, abortion and g@y marriage. She has been exposed to the gospel as she was growing up, but it had no effect on her. Why? She was dead in transgressions and sins. No amount of gospel preaching and/or witnessing to her can help her in her fallen state. In comes someone who presents the gospel to her. In the middle of the gospel presentation, God begins to work in her to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. In this work, is quickening, and in this quickening, faith and repentance. She then makes her statement of faith and is baptized and lives her life for God.

Yes, God is the one who regenerates, but He does so via the gospel.

I said plainly that it is God who regenerates. He does this via the preaching of the gospel.

How does that view differ from yours?

 

[savedbymercy]

Okay, here is a portion of the thread that I first responded in this thread:





I said plainly that it is God who regenerates. He does this via the preaching of the gospel.

How does that view differ from yours?

All you have to do is read what I stated and compare it to what you stated!

 

[SovereignGrace]

BrotherSovereign,

I am glad we can both agree Cornelius was regenerated prior to Peter preaching to him.

Yes he was. However, as Peter preached to him, he made statements such as You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.[Acts 10:36] & also You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached. How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him. [vss 37,38] Peter stated Cornelius You know the message God sent to the people of Israel and You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, while under the inspiration of the Spirit. Cornelius was already well aware of the gospel. Yet, God sent Peter to 'seal the deal', so-to-speak.

So yes, he was regenerated, but he had heard the gospel already before.

I think we need to define the gospel in order to determine if Cornelius had heard it prior to Peter's arrival.

It is this For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.[Rom. 1:16] It is given by God to those who believe, those who already have faith. Those who believe, have faith, already show the working of the Spirit's regenerative power. But in all of this, the gospel is presented and the Spirit moves through it.

Thankfully to define this, we don't have to rely upon my opinion or yours (both of which may be bias), but the Bible defines what the gospel is. Paul writes, "15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

Yes, the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

There is nothing in the text you gave me that indicates Cornelius heard of Jesus's resurrection.

Huh? How do you know this? How would I know this? I do know that Peter did mention it, yes. But we have no way of knowing one way or the other if he had or had not. Acts is one of those books where you see a transition going on. The churches that were being set up had a bunch of Jews in them. They were still trying to hold onto their customs and serving Christ. I do believe he heard the gospel as Peter had stated 'you know the message....'

This is a key part of the gospel according to Paul and if you omit it, it is not the gospel fo "if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain" (1 Corinthians 15:14).

Agree.

Notice what the text says, "40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people..." (Acts 10:40-42).

Wonderful.

This passage explicitly says the risen Jesus was not shown openly "to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drive with him after he rose from the dead" (i.e. the apostles) and of this Peter says Christ "commanded us to preach unto the people". This is exactly what Peter was telling Cornelius that he did not know because it wasn't shown openly "to all the people, but unto the witnesses".

You may have a point there. The thing is this, Cornelius knew about Christ. He had heard about him. I think that may be the same thing that happened in Acts 19 and those who had been baptized by John's baptism. This is why I am iffy on making a strong doctrinal stand on about any subject in the book of Acts On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.

[Acts 19:5-7] The Pentecostals like to use Acts in support of laying on of hands to receive the 'baptism of the Spirit' and speaking in tongues will be given unto them, and then they start sounding like a baby glurbbling.

Now, I made several other points in my prior posts, but you only responded to this one. Now that I have responded to two of your posts and addressed every point you made in all of them, when you have time if you could please go back and respond to the points I made in this post and my prior posts to you. Thanks and God bless.

Brother Joe

I hope I have answered all of them now. If there is one I missed, please let me know and I'll do my best to address it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

sovereigngrace

savedbymercy

It is the Spirit that quickens, or gives Life Jn 6:63

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Never stated otherwise. I even used that verse in another post in this thread.

The Gospel doesnt give Life, but it does make it manifest 2 Tim 1:10

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Never stated it did. I said God moves through the gospel. God quickens sinners so that they can understand what the preacher is preaching in the gospel message he is presenting.

The Gospel brings to Light the Immortal Eternal Life given by the Spirit after He quickens the Elect !

No disagreement here. He does this via the gospel.

Thats why Jesus said the Gospel fell upon good ground that bears fruit Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Yes.

So its obvious that the ground was good[by regeneration of the Spirit] in preparation for the receiving of the Gospel !

Yes. You need to learn to better glean from the posts I, or someone else posts, before you post. I agree with you, yet you say I don't?