Featured The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ

Seriously, what's the deal with the French? :smilewinkgrin:

I agree that sin must be punished. But in your theology God has determined to punish men before they are ever born because He never intends to save them. He truly creates people with no other intention than to punish them eternally. Yet somehow the Calvinist says God is not the one who condemns these people. You cannot have the election of one group to salvation without recognizing the similar election of the remainder to damnation. At least some cals will own up to the necessary existence of double predestination.

You're making it sound as if God's saving love is only true if people survive. That's totally false per scripture. Jesus Himself addressed this when people tried to cast others as worse sinners simply because they suffered worse calamity. Do you think the thief on the cross was not saved, simply because he still died? No. I'm not going to try to act like I know God's intention with each and every person, but to hear some Calvinists talk, you would think that the entirety of humanity prior to Jesus's incarnation was sentenced to eternal damnation simply because of when they lived.

See my answer above.

The scriptures say God commands all men everywhere to repent, but your side says man can only repent if God makes him repent. So God tells everyone to repent, only allows a few to repent, and then blames man for not doing what God never gave man the ability to do.

Consider this: There are a lot of parents who did not want their children to do drugs. Yet they did. The parent could have stopped them, but only by infringing on their ability to do anything at all, and forcing them to stay in a "safe" place. Since parents want their children to grow and learn, they don't keep them hidden (for the most part). A parent who wants the best for their child, yet does not force choices on them, and then their children go astray...do you call that parent a failure?

So the scripture is wrong when it says God commands all men everywhere to repent? Or is this another case of the Bible saying "all men" but actually only meaning "the Elect?" It's so confusing when the Bible obfuscates its own meaning.

Why? Does it bother you to recognize the obvious conclusion of Calvinism: that no man is saved unless God irresistibly draws him and forces salvation upon him? If you irresistibly move something, does it have any say in where it is moved, or do you force it to move to where you desire?

Here's the rub, SG...us non-Cals are just as thankful for God's intervention as you Cals are. We just do not buy the theology that God forces salvation or damnation upon mankind. We read the invitations as events that man must answer. Your side seems to read those invitations as events that man cannot even comprehend unless God irresistibly moves them to understand and answer.

So once again the scripture is unclear. When John said "Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world" he should've said "Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the Elect only." 1 John 2:2 reads "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world," but it should actually read "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the Elect only."

Again, you're applying a definition of God's saving love that we non-Cals do not hold to. You seem to be trying to cast us as Universalists. We believe that God must move first. Having "free will" does not mean that man can save himself. God has to act on us first. Seed is planted through the preached gospel, conviction falls on a man or woman, and they stand in a proverbial valley of decision. They have the free will only to accept or reject His call. This does not make them the provider of the gift, only the recipient.

So in your eyes God is only sovereign if he never allows anyone to make a decision other then Himself, right? Every single thing that happens is foreordained of God. That's the only way I see it from your words that God can be viewed as sovereign. God's hand must be in everything that happens. Never mind that wind, fire and earthquake that Elijah experienced that the scripture says God was not in.

 

DHK

yes

I was in complete rebellion to God until He effectually and irresistibly drew me

No I had no choice.....I was bound by sin and in rebellion...then God regenerated me and making me a new creation.

 

Protestant

Yes....Paul should have declared the love of God is revealed against all the truth suppressors and their evil deeds...if these other ideas were to be entertained...:laugh::laugh:

 

Then what is "Irresistible Grace" if not a forcing of God's grace on someone? The person being "graced" has no option but to accept the grace.

What are you saying here, Protestant? Are you implying that we non-Calvinists are not "true believers?" I sincerely hope not, but some clarification would be nice.

According to your side, God does this all the time. You say He commands all men everywhere to repent, even though He knows they can only repent if He moves them to repent.

Having never had access to infallible knowledge, I cannot reasonably answer this question.

No non-Cal would argue that. We agree that the gospel is a necessity.

If they are free to reject Christ, then how are they not free to accept Christ?

Then why did God not provide that loving grace to all? He had the power, obviously. Yet for some reason, per your theology, without and condition, He chose to hate some enough to elect them unto damnation, just as He chose to love some enough to elect them to salvation.

Thank you for that effective slandering of the opposition. I'm guilty of the same thing, so good on ya'.

Like SG, you are acting as though God's love is only seen through Him allowing physical survival.

Again, if only non-Calvinist actually comprehended the word of God... never mind that some of them have spent their lives in pursuit of the truth of God's word...they'd all be Calvinists if only they would actually understand the Bible.

 

No, he was a devout Roman Catholic trusting both in the RCC and his own self-righteousness. He was what most would call a "good" man, but not saved. His standard of morality was higher than most Christians that I know.

I appreciate your testimony. The truth of the matter is you know when you believed. Whether the first or the second time they were just a matter of months apart. You can point to that time when the Lord was working in your life and a time when you believed.

My wife was raised a Presbyterian, saved as a child around the age of 7. She remembers the event. Maybe she was 8, doesn't know sure. But she does know for sure that there was a time when she knew she was a sinner in need of a Savior and she asked her mother to explain salvation more clearly to her.

Childhood decisions are difficult for many. Many times a child "asks Jesus into his heart" in order to please his parents, or his friend, the pastor, etc. Then it is not Christ that is the object of their faith but the parents, the one whom they are trying to please. They grow up in rebellion against God.
Prayer doesn't save. Faith in Christ alone saves. It is Christ that does the saving. But if the element of faith is not there one cannot be saved.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

There are some Calvinists that are afraid to give a testimony. They cannot say "I believe." Why? They consider "faith" as a work. They believe in a warped view of sovereignty. They are chosen they say. If they are chosen without faith, then how do they know they are chosen? They don't and thus have a problem with eternal security.

2Ti_1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

 

I have never met a Calvinist like that. Come to that, I've never met an evangelical Christian like that. It's Anglicans and Methodists who don't have a testimony.

In 2013, I heard Alistair Begg give his testimony at a Christian conference where he was speaking. Just in case you don't know of him he is the Senior Pastor of Parkside Church in Cleveland (quite a large congregation, I understand) and a Baptist.
He grew up in a Christian home and has no recollection of a time when he didn't love Christ. You cannot judge a Christian by his testimony.

'In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: whoever does not practise righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother' (1 John 3:10).

 

Consider Icon's testimony above:

In my words he is saying: "God forced me to be saved; I had no choice. There was nothing I could do about it."

It almost sounds like belief or faith is out of the question. Calvinists are monergists and not synergists, and do not want to give any hint in a testimony of "cooperating" with God, even though faith is not a "work."
Therein lies the problem.

The statement "I don't know of at time when I didn't love Jesus" (or have been a Christian all my life), is what I hear from Catholics, Anglicans, people that have grown up in cults like Mormons, etc. A true believer in Christ recognizes that he is a sinner in need of a Savior. He is criminal before God. He is in need of a Savior. If there is no time when one has not realized himself in that condition and repented and turned to Christ, then how can he be saved?
There must be a turning point; change of some sort in person's life.

 

As usual.....that is not what I said or meant at all......once again you try and answer for me and invent what you would like me to say.

Your lack of understanding of the biblical teaching is the root cause.....I am sure every Cal knows exactly what I meant and it was not what you said...:laugh::laugh:

Salvation is of the Lord there is no cooperation in order to be saved

 

I was resisting God.....reading the Bible to look for mistakes in it.
God showed me I was wrong. ..and He indeed is the true and living God.

But God who is rich in mercy brought me to life. Your posts have not been answered but are instructive to any who want to learn and grow...SG has also posted saving truth despite opposition. Maintain good works and the faithful proclamation of the truth.

 

Yes....there is not such thing as a carnal christian. ....they are carnal in the heart.

 

If you use the quote button on your own post, this is what comes up, word for word:

I never changed a word. It is exactly what you said--your words.

You had no choice (i.e. you were forced).
You made no indication that you put your faith in Christ, but rather that you were unable to believe--you had no choice.

And, if that is the case, then how do you know you are one of the elect?

 

A Christian whose heart is carnal is a carnal Christian.

 

I know what I said and I stand by what I post it's what you say that you think I said that I don't agree with .
you always twist what we say.
I didn't say anything like what you said in your words that I said....

 

I never brought up the doctrine of a carnal nature. That is a different topic.

The question being brought up in this thread is: What about the person who says--"I have been a Christian all my life;" or "I can't remember a time in my life when I became a Christian," etc.

If the only testimony one has as a Christian is that they "have been a Christian all their life," then I question their salvation. That was my point. There must be a time when one recognizes they were a sinner and turned to Christ. There must be change. How can you be a Christian all your life if you were born into this world as an enemy of God, a child of disobedience, separated from God?

 

Saving faith is a God given gift it's part of the salvation that's given freely .
men don't have inherent faith that they put their faith in God men resist God.
God had mercy upon me...gave me a new heart as He brought me from death to life..