Featured The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ

Let's reopen the case. First the term.....irrestible grace.
It is not speaking of reprobation with religious persons resisting unto death.
The theogical term speaks of the saving grace of God which is granted to the elect that is not ultimately rejected. That is because this inward call is always effectual. It worked in everyone of the elect here on BB. Just ask them they all will give God the praise.

 

So an Elect person on whom the "Irresistible Grace" of God falls will have no option but to believe and be saved? And you guys don't see that as God forcing salvation on the Elect (and likewise forcing damnation on the non Elect)? You really think that God doesn't force you into whatever state you will be in, seeing as you have no option at all?

You say "the theogical term speaks of the saving grace of God which is granted to the elect that is not ultimately rejected." Does that mean that there are Elect people who do reject the call? Again, if not, you cannot say that God is not forcing salvation on man. If man has no option but to accept the grace of God, then it is not a "free choice" on his part.

 

I have never heard of the term.

I "perused" the article on the link, read more closely your quote, and found it wanting. Written from a Calvinist it obviously adds to what a non-believes those things that he does not believe.

No, it doesn't. The Calvinist fails to grasp the idea that obedience to the commands of Christ brings glory to God. He things that if we somehow thinks that if we ignore God's command then we are glorifying God. I have never heard such nonsense and twisting of Scripture.

The premise is already laid out. What I supposedly believe is unbiblical. It is not an objective article at all.
The inference is made before he gets to his argument: Those that don't believe as he does are going to "diminish Christ' glory."

This is wrong. I will speak only from my own position. My position is not held or borne out of a refutation of Calvinism as he infers. My position was laid out from Scripture before I knew Calvinism existed. Calvinism is not the end-all and be-all of Scripture. It is an invented theology that came 1500 years after the Apostles.
The command of Christ:
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
--If one does not believe in Christ he will come into eternal condemnation will not pass to eternal life. Salvation is based on faith, always has been.
It is not based on: "I can't imagine a God whom would "arbitrarily" choose some and condemn the rest."
--That is a foolish philosophy based on the author. In fact what he presents is a philosophy not a Biblical stand. He himself calls it "an essay." It doesn't have a Biblical foundation. I base my answer on God's Word.

I don't reason that way at all. The Calvinist who tries to refute the non-Cal pours his heart into that idea. I have never heard of that argument until a Calvinist used it as a rebuttal. It is the foolish idea of a Calvinist.

NO. Salvation is based on faith. That is not arbitrary. Again, he is presenting the lame arguments that Calvinists bring to the table. This is just foolish philosophy and nothing more.

Why would you address your own arguments? That is a waste of time.

I have never heard the term before SG, so I don't claim it is my position.

Salvation is all of God. Christ paid the ultimate price on the cross.
Salvation is in Christ alone, by grace alone, through faith alone.
That is my position; no more, no less.

You can't pit one truth against another and think they contradict each other.
God's pleasure and will is that all will be saved. He plainly says that.
If that is not accomplished because of the hardness of man's wicked heart, then God's pleasure and will is that those who accept him by faith shall be saved. That is what he has plainly said in Scripture:
John 5:24; John 8:12; John 14:6; John 11:25;26; John 15:1,2; John 6:1ff; John 10:10, etc.
Christ does not contradict himself.

It is Jesus who said: "Come unto me all ye that labor and I will give you rest."
That is his invitation.
It is not grace to select billions more than the elect and choose them, through no fault of their own to burn in the Lake of Fire for all eternity, whether or not they have had the chance to hear the gospel. There is no grace there. There is no mercy there. It goes against the nature of God; it goes against His attributes.

 

I agree with your statement that sin is what condemns men to Hell. However, I'm struggling to see the justification of this seemingly selective application of God's sovereignty by the Calvinist camp. God is sovereign in electing men unto salvation, but God somehow has no part in the condemnation of men under sin.

Earlier in our conversation you brought up those who drowned in the flood. I took from your words a sense that God's love was only revealed by Him allowing someone to survive in the physical sense. If that was not your intention, then I apologize for the misapplication and response.

Just for clarification, are you assigning the entirety of humanity prior to the incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus to condemnation simply because they did not "know of His existence?" Are you saying that David was condemned to Hell? Moses? Abraham? Elisha?

No non-Calvinist will argue that the gospel is not required.

So again, just for clarification, every single native American was condemned as non-Elect? The overwhelmingly vast majority of pre-1st-Century Europe, Asia, and Africa were condemned as non-Elect? Every single Aborigine in Australia prior to the coming of the missionaries was condemned as a non-Elect?

When David said "restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation," David really didn't know what he was talking about, as he could not possibly comprehend salvation without absolute knowledge of Jesus Christ? Wait, what about those "in prison?" What about Jesus leading captivity captive? What about those who died "not having received the promise, but having seen it afar off?"

Did He exercise His "irresistible grace" on you? As Icon states, God exercised this grace on him, changing him. Icon states that he had no choice. Were you the same? If so, how can you with any shred of reasonableness, say that God did not force this upon you?

So, God commands all men to repent, only gives the gift of repentance to a few, then condemns the remainder for not doing something that He never allowed them to do in the first place, and you call that righteous and holy? Your argument basically establishes a scenario in which God pronounces judgment on man for not repenting of their sins, yet man could say "you never gave the ability to repent," but God says "still, you failed to repent." You basically have God holding man back from repenting, and then blaming that man for not repenting. How do you not see that?

I'm thinking it's cruel for the exact reason listed above. We are commanded to repent, only a few are given the ability to repent, yet all are blamed. Somehow God is sovereign in giving the ability to some, but His sovereignty isn't even in question by not allowing the remainder to repent, yet blaming them all the same.

I wish one of you guys would produce a Calvinist Translation of the scripture, so we could all know exactly when God was speaking in terms of everyone and in speaking in terms only of the Elect.

Do you likewise rejoice in God denying the ability to repent and be saved to such a huge majority of humanity?

Look, I rejoice in God choosing me as well. The non-Cals that I associate with are also thankful that God chose them. None of us believe that we came to salvation of our own accord. God does all the work. As DHK said "Salvation is by Christ alone, through faith alone, by grace alone." Or, as Ephesians 2:8-9 read "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

 

In other words, "our non-Calvinist friends have chosen the easy way out, and simply do not understand the great complexities of salvation that the precepts of Calvinism reveal."

You are over-simplifying, generalizing, and otherwise mis-representing the views of non-Calvinists. No non-Calvinist would accuse God of wrongdoing. We simply teach and preach the revelation we find in the scriptures and under the guidance of the Spirit. We've listed for you numerous times the invitations found in the scripture. That's all we can do. We can't help it that your side turns scripture on its head and says those invitations are not for all, but are instead only for the Elect.

By that logic, man does not even need to believe, seeing as belief is an exercise of the mind, and therefore can be called a work. Never mind that scripture tells us we must believe, and scripture tells us we must repent. These things are not considered works, though. They are requisites for salvation.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast." So what is faith? Is not faith a trust and belief in God? So man has to believe God to be saved, but that means that man has some sort of say in the status of his salvation. Remember, from our point of view, the gift is wholly of God, and wholly offered by God. Just because He allows us the will to accept or reject Him does not make us the originator or provider of the gift.

Are you saying that faith is a work? Do you not see how that contradicts Paul's writing to the Ephesians?

In other words, "if you guys could just understand the scripture, you'd be proper, worthy Calvinists, just like us."

In other words, "these non-Calvinists are blinded and misguided by Satan but hopefully some of them will come around."

 

God saw all mankind fallen, fallen in Adam. Agree?

Adam sinned and caused the fall. Agree?

Adam is solely at fault. Agree?

God, if He left everyone in that fallen state, everyone would deservedly go to torment. Agree?

However, God in His mercy(He did not have to send His Son to begin with, but He graceously chose to do so) chose a multitude of sinners that no man can # to give to His Son to die for. And you take humberage?

They drowned because of their continual wicked thoughts. The only reason why those eight survived was solely by His grace.

They knew of the coming of the Messiah to come. God spoke to the Israelites through the prophets. They looked towards the cross. The Jews were told of Him coming to 'save His people from their sins.

:thumbsup:

Is there another way other than the gospel that anyone can be saved? Can they go to heaven without knowing of Christ's existence?

In your theology, telling people about Christ is the cruelest thing anyone can do. Keeping them from that knowledge and they are saved? All people need to do is move their kids to a deserted island and they are good to go. The first missionary that approaches them, just bust them in their mouth?

They knew of the Messiah coming. Those who believed in the OT days had the birth of the Spirit. Without the Spirit, they are none of His.

Look, it is like you with your companion. She was different than anyother you had went out with, had dated before. You fell in love with her. Words can not explain it. I had went out with many women, dated quite a few. Many were truly good to me, but something did not 'click'. I was set up for a date with a girl one evening. She was pretty, we had a good time and something 'clicked'. I knew within 1 month she was the one I wanted to bare my last name. It was not because she was prettier, it was not because she treated me better than the others, it was not because she was a better cook, had a better body. It was because "Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate."[Mk. 10:9]

If anyone deserved salvation, you would have a valid argument. If God withholds that which no man deserves, then if you think that is unfair, you need to take that up with Him, and not I, mon ami.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?[Rom. 9:19-21]

God had every right to toss everyone into hell after Adam sinned. No one forced Him to send Jesus, He graceously chose to. He could have left us with no remedy for our sins, monsieur. God has mercy on the objects of mercy and wrath on the objects of wrath. One does not go from a object of wrath to an object of mercy, mon ami.

Those that die lost, did Christ take their sins away?

I am not the one objecting to what He does, monsieur, that is you.

And yet if you choose not to accept Him, you will die lost. You will supercedes His.

 

If I am understanding correctly that which I bolded, that is catergorically wrong. We do not believe with the mind. If it is with the mind then reconcile that thought with If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.[Rom. 10:9,10]

I will let you clarify. You may be saying it in that fashion to prove a point and not mean it as I read it.


But that is why sinners can not believe UNLESS first quickened. Sinners' hearts are corrupted by sin. Jesus in Matthew 7 addresses this issue of good and bad trees. Good trees bring good fruit and bad trees bring bad fruit. Sinners are 'bad trees' and only produce bad fruit. It takes God to change them from producing bad to good fruit. This is regeneration at work by taking away a sin corrupted heart and giving them a new heart. [Ez. 11:19 & 36:26]

 

DHK,

What is your view of And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.[Rom. 8:28-30]

 

Look, we invite everybody in the gospel we preach. However, it takes God to draw them inwardly. Now, if you do a Greek word study of the word 'draw' it means to draw, drag off, to draw by inward power, lead, impel Our preaching only reaches the ears of the flesh, it takes God to reach the ears of the spiritual man. When He draws, He does so as those usages say.

You left off the most important portion, "and not of yourselves." And the gifts and calling of God are not repentant of, unregretted[Rom. 11:29]

None said that in my opinion.

None said that. Keep your gloves up or I will have to deduct 1 point. :laugh::smilewinkgrin:

Mon ami. Obligatory french word, monsieur. :tongue3:

 

PreachTony

Hello PT.

I see this issue disturbs you. It never was an issue for me, but I will try and help remove some obstacles for you

I am not certain what you mean by how you express this...let me explain it this way from the confession of faith; watch how these men explain step by step what scripture speaks of.....

1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time,
effectually to call,

{PT..men resist God, men resist the general call, that is the outward preaching and the teaching,and reading of scripture.}

by his Word and Spirit,

out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature,

to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;

enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;

taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh;

renewing their wills,

and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good,

and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;

yet so as they come most freely,


being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

The language is not of force at all ...you make it sound like something painful.
I have never met a Cal who said....I am so sorry God forced me to believe.

No...let me explain why. The fall forced damnation on all men. Sin and death lead to hell. There is no such thing as election unto hell...

All died in Adam.....all without exception.....If God does not intervene in history...all would be in hell justly for their sins...

That is what must first be understood.....All died....all deserve hell.....

What if that was the end of the story? We would all be in hell as that is all we deserve.

But God who is rich in mercy...has purposed to save a multitude in His Son.

Now.....Cals believe that an infinite and perfectly Holy ,wise, Loving God who is both just and righteous...we believe and trust that He is going to save all
That He can wisely save. I would never question God's design, I would never question God's election.
In fact when I see some of you men question God I find it quite disturbing.
It is a lack of faith, and a lack of trust in God's omniscience.
As if you men know better what a Holy righteous God should do....more than God himself.

When I was unsaved, when any elect person was unsaved they were still in rebellion and resisted God. That is why God seeks and saves us....by whatever means is necessary....preaching ,teaching, conviction, providence, affliction, he has ordained means to give us eyes to see.
Any sinful rebellion on our part falls away when we are given a new heart and eyes to see, and ears to hear.

Theologians make a distinction between a saving believe,{saving faith granted by God} and carnal natural human trust where men are said to "believe in vain"
1 Corinthians 15King James Version (KJV)

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

I resisted God for years....but when He effectually drew me to the Son....at first I did not even know He existed, I did not know He was drawing me, I was not seeking Him, I wanted to resist everything about Christianity.....
But God had already set His love on me.....when the Spirit dealt with me it was no contest.....There was no doubt, there was no question at all.

When God gives the new nature it all changes.

 

Exactly what it says. He speaks only to believers. There is nothing there about the predestination or election of the unregenerate of unsaved. It is always about the saved, that after they are saved they should be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. It has to do with service. Predestination and election always looks forward to the believer, not the unbeliever.

 

PreachTony,

Say I have $10,000,000 dollars, it is mine, and mine alone. Now, do I have a right to keep it to myself or give it money to people who I deem needy of it? By your standards, I must offer money to everybody I come into contact with or I am being unjust, not giving some to some people and giving money to others. Now, I am sure you are going to throw out that I would be unjust to give it to one asking me for some cash and not to some who are also asking for some cash.

Here is the thing, though...no one is asking God for His saving grace in the sinful, fallen state. They want nothing to do with Him, they run from Him. I witness to many people who do not realize they are spiritually broke. They realize they do not “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’[Luke 14:28-30]

Jesus backed up what I just posted when He said “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’Matt. 20:13-15]

You guys act like God is entitled to make an offer to everybody, even those who never knew He existed. God did not have to make a covenant with His Son, but He chose to. He then chose a multitude of sinners(none could have been saved and He would still be just, mon ami), but you think we are making Him unfair by stating He does not offer everybody a chance at the table.

If He saved 'goose-egg', would He still be just, PreachTony?

 

Here are some of the usages of 'foreknows'...


of those whom God elected to salvation, to predestinate.


So it is much more than saying God just knew who would, but rather, He foreknows them because He chose them and planted them in Christ. He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.[Matt. 15:13]

So what you are conveying is the 'foreseen faith election' where God looked down through time and saw those who would accept Him(have faith) and then elected them. Those He did not choose were those who did not have faith, therefore, your 'everybody has faith' mantra has no basis in scripture.

 

For someone who has not heard the term, you sure do believe the doctrine hook, line and sinker.


Here is one of your posts in a snippet.

That is the 'foreseen faith doctrine' to a 'tee'. Now, if God looked down through time and elected those who would believe, then He did not elect those who did not believe. So then 'not all men have faith.' :thumbsup:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2243188&postcount=19

 

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2243130&postcount=14


And here's another dandy:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2204497&postcount=196


I have now show you three posts where the doctrine you have never heard of, you are lock-step with it.

 

You will have to trust me on this. Don't infer or even call me a liar.
I have never heard the name before, nor anyone categorize it as a distinct theology. Just because someone has similar beliefs to mine in some respects and then puts a name to it does not mean I believe in "his theology." Perhaps it is him believing in mine.
But in reality perhaps we have some things in common, but it is doubtful that we have all things in common. Two men rarely agree on everything.

 

Basically you deny the words of Christ, every time he turned to an individual and sad to them "thy faith has made the whole" or "be it according to your faith."
You can't explain the Roman Centurion's faith, of whom Jesus said he had greater faith than any one else in Israel. You have never answered those arguments, and probably never will.