The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ

[Iconoclast]

That is a false theology. We always have choices. Even Judas Iscariot had a choice. He didn't have to betray Jesus.
Pilate had a choice. He didn't have to release Jesus to the Jews. That choice was on him. We always have a choice.

In Acts 31, Paul said: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. That command/promise is repeated dozens if not hundreds to times throughout both NT and OT. If you do not believe you cannot be saved.


The term "Irresistible Grace" is an unbiblical term. It is not found in the Bible. The term "forced Grace" is a very accurate synonym for the same term. If grace is irresistible then it is forced. There is no difference.


I never said I did anything my way. I obeyed what both Jesus and Paul said.
What did Jesus say:

oh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
hear and believe

What did Paul say:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
--Believe in thine heart. Salvation is conditioned on faith in Christ.
Whatever happened to sola fide?


How do you know he chose you? You don't know!
On what basis? How can you be sure? A Mormon could say the same things.
God doesn't give the unregenerate faith. That statement is ludicrous. The Bible doesn't teach it. Nowhere in the bible does it teach that God gives the unsaved spiritual gifts or the fruit of the Spirit.

I never said that. You said God chose you, and you don't have an ounce of proof that he did. Why do you think that he chose you if he even did?


I don't have a team. I speak forth the Word of God.
The Bible clearly says in Romans 5:1
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--If you haven't put your faith and trust in Christ alone you have not been justified.
Case closed.

Let's reopen the case. First the term.....irrestible grace.
It is not speaking of reprobation with religious persons resisting unto death.
The theogical term speaks of the saving grace of God which is granted to the elect that is not ultimately rejected. That is because this inward call is always effectual. It worked in everyone of the elect here on BB. Just ask them they all will give God the praise.

 

[PreachTony]

Let's reopen the case. First the term.....irrestible grace.
It is not speaking of reprobation with religious persons resisting unto death.
The theogical term speaks of the saving grace of God which is granted to the elect that is not ultimately rejected. That is because this inward call is always effectual. It worked in everyone of the elect here on BB. Just ask them they all will give God the praise.

So an Elect person on whom the "Irresistible Grace" of God falls will have no option but to believe and be saved? And you guys don't see that as God forcing salvation on the Elect (and likewise forcing damnation on the non Elect)? You really think that God doesn't force you into whatever state you will be in, seeing as you have no option at all?

You say "the theogical term speaks of the saving grace of God which is granted to the elect that is not ultimately rejected." Does that mean that there are Elect people who do reject the call? Again, if not, you cannot say that God is not forcing salvation on man. If man has no option but to accept the grace of God, then it is not a "free choice" on his part.

 

[DHK]

You hold to the 'foreseen faith election', correct?

I have never heard of the term.

I want you to read this link and I want to post a snippet of it for all to peruse.

I "perused" the article on the link, read more closely your quote, and found it wanting. Written from a Calvinist it obviously adds to what a non-believes those things that he does not believe.

Now, that which I bolded shows the shaky ground you are walking on, mon ami. If God elects those He sees has faith, and the others are not chosen, then all do not have faith, which shoots a gaping hole in your 'all men have faith' mantra.

No, it doesn't. The Calvinist fails to grasp the idea that obedience to the commands of Christ brings glory to God. He things that if we somehow thinks that if we ignore God's command then we are glorifying God. I have never heard such nonsense and twisting of Scripture.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/foreseenfaith.html

The Scripture teaches that everything related to the gospel is designed to glorify Christ and abase man's pride in thinking he can save himself. So it follows that anything that diminishes Christ’s glory is inconsistent with the true gospel. So my purpose in raising this issue is not to be contentious but to glorify God by aligning our thoughts with His. This short essay is meant to challenge the unbiblical position that some modern evangelicals hold regarding "foreseen faith".

The premise is already laid out. What I supposedly believe is unbiblical. It is not an objective article at all.
The inference is made before he gets to his argument: Those that don't believe as he does are going to "diminish Christ' glory."

Specifically, I would like to confront the position, held by some, which believes that God looks down the corridors of time to see who will believe and then "predestines" them based on the exercise of their autonomous free will to choose Him. I do understand that one of the main purposes that some Christians believe this concept is that they wish to preserve God’s indiscriminate love to all and can't imagine a God whom would "arbitrarily" choose some and condemn the rest.

This is wrong. I will speak only from my own position. My position is not held or borne out of a refutation of Calvinism as he infers. My position was laid out from Scripture before I knew Calvinism existed. Calvinism is not the end-all and be-all of Scripture. It is an invented theology that came 1500 years after the Apostles.
The command of Christ:
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
--If one does not believe in Christ he will come into eternal condemnation will not pass to eternal life. Salvation is based on faith, always has been.
It is not based on: "I can't imagine a God whom would "arbitrarily" choose some and condemn the rest."
--That is a foolish philosophy based on the author. In fact what he presents is a philosophy not a Biblical stand. He himself calls it "an essay." It doesn't have a Biblical foundation. I base my answer on God's Word.

If unconditional election were true, they reason, then why doesn't God save everyone?

I don't reason that way at all. The Calvinist who tries to refute the non-Cal pours his heart into that idea. I have never heard of that argument until a Calvinist used it as a rebuttal. It is the foolish idea of a Calvinist.

Wouldn't choosing some and leaving others make God arbitrary in His choice?

NO. Salvation is based on faith. That is not arbitrary. Again, he is presenting the lame arguments that Calvinists bring to the table. This is just foolish philosophy and nothing more.

These are understandable objections that I hope to address in what follows:

Why would you address your own arguments? That is a waste of time.

If I understand the "foreseen faith" position correctly, the following three ideas express the central concepts that this position holds:

I have never heard the term before SG, so I don't claim it is my position.

1. The salvation of individuals is ultimately the result of their choice rather than divine appointment (alone).

Salvation is all of God. Christ paid the ultimate price on the cross.
Salvation is in Christ alone, by grace alone, through faith alone.
That is my position; no more, no less.

2. Election is based upon God foreseeing the faith of certain individuals rather than only being in accordance with His pleasure and merciful will.

You can't pit one truth against another and think they contradict each other.
God's pleasure and will is that all will be saved. He plainly says that.
If that is not accomplished because of the hardness of man's wicked heart, then God's pleasure and will is that those who accept him by faith shall be saved. That is what he has plainly said in Scripture:
John 5:24; John 8:12; John 14:6; John 11:25;26; John 15:1,2; John 6:1ff; John 10:10, etc.
Christ does not contradict himself.

3. Election is conditional, based upon the acceptance of Jesus Christ and not the determination of God, even though God's grace is certainly involved in this process.

It is Jesus who said: "Come unto me all ye that labor and I will give you rest."
That is his invitation.
It is not grace to select billions more than the elect and choose them, through no fault of their own to burn in the Lake of Fire for all eternity, whether or not they have had the chance to hear the gospel. There is no grace there. There is no mercy there. It goes against the nature of God; it goes against His attributes.

 

[Protestant]

You say He commands all men everywhere to repent, even though He knows they can only repent if He moves them to repent.

Prior to the Gospel dispensation of the Church our holy God intentionally left the vast majority of mankind without knowledge of the only way of salvation.

That, in itself, is a death sentence with no possibility of reprieve.

[The living God] who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. (Acts 14:16)

Surely you understand their ways were not God’s ways.

Was God fair in leaving them in darkness?

But with the advent of Christ things have changed.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent [and believe the Gospel]. (Acts 17:30)

Our Lord is presently sending His Gospel message into all the world, the eternal intent of which was prophesied by the Prophets:

As he saith in Osee, I will call [irresistibly and effectually] them my people which were not my people; and her beloved which was not beloved.
And it [the eternal decree of election of particular persons] shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there shall they be called the children of the living God. (Romans 9:25-26)

As mature, serious-minded Christians, no longer needing to drink the milk of the Word as newborns, we should now be able to chew the meat of the Word.

Peter acknowledges that Paul's teachings concerning salvation are hard to be understood by many.

He then warns of the destruction of the wicked men who pervert Paul’s teachings. (2 Peter 3:15-17)

Let’s be perfectly honest. Salvation doctrine as taught by our Pelagian/Arminian friends is easy to grasp.

It does not cause men alarm nor does it bring the sovereignty of God into judgment.

To the natural mind, it all sounds perfectly reasonable.

God loves everyone. Christ died for everyone. Man must make a decision. He is capable of making a good decision if he so wills.

Those who make the right decision are rewarded with eternal life.

Those who make the wrong decision are punished with eternal death.

By preaching this mode of salvation God is completely just, allowing man to be the arbiter of his own eternal destiny.

God’s hands are ‘clean’ from any wrongdoing.

God offered the gift, man either accepted or refused. End of story.

But that is not the scenario portrayed by Christ, Paul or the multitude of Scriptures to the contrary.

Paul Hated For His Doctrine

Which is why Paul is castigated so harshly when he preaches salvation is determined by the election of grace according to the eternal purpose of God in Christ.

For it is an election which does not consider anything in man – not foreseen faith, not his striving to do good to his fellow man, nothing – other than his lost, sinful condition as fallen in Adam.

When the Bible tells us we are elected to be saved by grace, the Holy Spirit is signifying God's decision to be merciful was due to the hidden eternal counsel of God as the sole cause.

Furthermore, when the Bible insists it is not by works that we are saved, the Holy Spirit is signifying that salvation is in no way attributed to anything which man can contribute.

Whatever man contributes is a work.....a work of man.

Which is why salvation is either of grace or of works.

Either it is all of the Lord or it is of the Lord + a contribution from man.

But the Bible is clear. Salvation is of the Lord. (Jonah 2:9)

There is no cause of God’s election outside of Himself.

Faith is all of Grace

How often we have heard our opponents claim, “Faith is not a work. It is innate in all men. It lies within man to exercise it or not.”

The Holy Spirit speaking through Paul disagrees:

Therefore it [justification] is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all (Romans 4:16)

The proper understanding of this Scripture cannot be overstated.

Paul, through the wisdom given him by God, is teaching that we are justified by faith because it was the eternal purpose of God to be absolutely certain that Abraham’s seed (all Jewish and Gentiles elected to salvation) would be justified.

And to effect that infallible certainty, the very faith by which we are justified is given us by the grace of God.

Thus, Paul says, Therefore it is of faith that it might be by grace.

God’s effectual saving graces, faith included, are they which will infallibly bring its recipient to glory.

I remind the Reader that the origin of our faith has been an ongoing dispute through the Ages.

Satan has always been about the business of stealing the glory of God and giving it to another.

Perhaps there are some Readers who are beginning to see the ‘light?’

 

[PreachTony]

Correct. Sin is what condemns the sinner to hell, and not God.

Election and predestination is for the elect only, mon ami. God chose(predestined/predestinated) to save them from their sins. The goats stay right where they are at.

Some are double predestanarians, yes, but not I, momsieur.

I agree with your statement that sin is what condemns men to Hell. However, I'm struggling to see the justification of this seemingly selective application of God's sovereignty by the Calvinist camp. God is sovereign in electing men unto salvation, but God somehow has no part in the condemnation of men under sin.

Huh? Whaaa? Where did I say that?

Yes it is, that is why I want to know where I said what you think I said.

Never said such. Please clarify your thought here.

Earlier in our conversation you brought up those who drowned in the flood. I took from your words a sense that God's love was only revealed by Him allowing someone to survive in the physical sense. If that was not your intention, then I apologize for the misapplication and response.

Look at Romans 10:14, monsieur.

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?

Can they believe on Jesus if they do not believe? How can they believe if they do not know of His existence?

Just for clarification, are you assigning the entirety of humanity prior to the incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus to condemnation simply because they did not "know of His existence?" Are you saying that David was condemned to Hell? Moses? Abraham? Elisha?

And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?

How can they be saved without knowing a thing about Jesus?

No non-Calvinist will argue that the gospel is not required.

And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Again, how can they be saved if a.) they do not believe? b.) do not know of His existence? c.) Never hear the gospel preached unto them? Unless you hold to mystical revelation where people said He manifested Himself to them, then you have a quagmire you are in, mon ami.If you hold to Jesus personally revealing Himself to those in remote areas, you still have yourself in a quagmire, monsieur.

So again, just for clarification, every single native American was condemned as non-Elect? The overwhelmingly vast majority of pre-1st-Century Europe, Asia, and Africa were condemned as non-Elect? Every single Aborigine in Australia prior to the coming of the missionaries was condemned as a non-Elect?

When David said "restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation," David really didn't know what he was talking about, as he could not possibly comprehend salvation without absolute knowledge of Jesus Christ? Wait, what about those "in prison?" What about Jesus leading captivity captive? What about those who died "not having received the promise, but having seen it afar off?"

You guys like to throw those words like 'force', 'make', 'puppet' &c around don't you. Did God force you to love Him? He came to me in a way He never had before and that caused me to see my need for Him and I loved Him after years of hating Him. No, I never 'hated' Him as people who hate their mortal enemies, but I hated Him by my actions.

Did He exercise His "irresistible grace" on you? As Icon states, God exercised this grace on him, changing him. Icon states that he had no choice. Were you the same? If so, how can you with any shred of reasonableness, say that God did not force this upon you?

It is a gift, monsieur.

So, God commands all men to repent, only gives the gift of repentance to a few, then condemns the remainder for not doing something that He never allowed them to do in the first place, and you call that righteous and holy? Your argument basically establishes a scenario in which God pronounces judgment on man for not repenting of their sins, yet man could say "you never gave the ability to repent," but God says "still, you failed to repent." You basically have God holding man back from repenting, and then blaming that man for not repenting. How do you not see that?

No. You are by thinking it is cruel for God to command everybody without exception to.

I'm thinking it's cruel for the exact reason listed above. We are commanded to repent, only a few are given the ability to repent, yet all are blamed. Somehow God is sovereign in giving the ability to some, but His sovereignty isn't even in question by not allowing the remainder to repent, yet blaming them all the same.

'All' rarely means everybody without exception, mon ami.

I wish one of you guys would produce a Calvinist Translation of the scripture, so we could all know exactly when God was speaking in terms of everyone and in speaking in terms only of the Elect.

No, but it apparently does bother you and you constituents. I rejoice in knowing that it was God who sought me out and saved me. If He had not do so, I'd either still be in rebellion or dead and in hell. Praise God for Him saving me.

Do you likewise rejoice in God denying the ability to repent and be saved to such a huge majority of humanity?

Look, I rejoice in God choosing me as well. The non-Cals that I associate with are also thankful that God chose them. None of us believe that we came to salvation of our own accord. God does all the work. As DHK said "Salvation is by Christ alone, through faith alone, by grace alone." Or, as Ephesians 2:8-9 read "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

 

[PreachTony]

Peter acknowledges that Paul's teachings concerning salvation are hard to be understood by many.

He then warns of the destruction of the wicked men who pervert Paul’s teachings. (2 Peter 3:15-17)

Let’s be perfectly honest. Salvation doctrine as taught by our Pelagian/Arminian friends is easy to grasp.

In other words, "our non-Calvinist friends have chosen the easy way out, and simply do not understand the great complexities of salvation that the precepts of Calvinism reveal."

By preaching this mode of salvation God is completely just, allowing man to be the arbiter of his own eternal destiny.

God’s hands are ‘clean’ from any wrongdoing.

God offered the gift, man either accepted or refused. End of story.

But that is not the scenario portrayed by Christ, Paul or the multitude of Scriptures to the contrary.

You are over-simplifying, generalizing, and otherwise mis-representing the views of non-Calvinists. No non-Calvinist would accuse God of wrongdoing. We simply teach and preach the revelation we find in the scriptures and under the guidance of the Spirit. We've listed for you numerous times the invitations found in the scripture. That's all we can do. We can't help it that your side turns scripture on its head and says those invitations are not for all, but are instead only for the Elect.

For it is an election which does not consider anything in man – not foreseen faith, not his striving to do good to his fellow man, nothing – other than his lost, sinful condition as fallen in Adam.

When the Bible tells us we are elected to be saved by grace, the Holy Spirit is signifying God's decision to be merciful was due to the hidden eternal counsel of God as the sole cause.

Furthermore, when the Bible insists it is not by works that we are saved, the Holy Spirit is signifying that salvation is in no way attributed to anything which man can contribute.

By that logic, man does not even need to believe, seeing as belief is an exercise of the mind, and therefore can be called a work. Never mind that scripture tells us we must believe, and scripture tells us we must repent. These things are not considered works, though. They are requisites for salvation.

Whatever man contributes is a work.....a work of man.

Which is why salvation is either of grace or of works.

Either it is all of the Lord or it is of the Lord + a contribution from man.

But the Bible is clear. Salvation is of the Lord. (Jonah 2:9)

There is no cause of God’s election outside of Himself.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast." So what is faith? Is not faith a trust and belief in God? So man has to believe God to be saved, but that means that man has some sort of say in the status of his salvation. Remember, from our point of view, the gift is wholly of God, and wholly offered by God. Just because He allows us the will to accept or reject Him does not make us the originator or provider of the gift.

How often we have heard our opponents claim, “Faith is not a work. It is innate in all men. It lies within man to exercise it or not.”

The Holy Spirit speaking through Paul disagrees:

Therefore it [justification] is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all (Romans 4:16)

Are you saying that faith is a work? Do you not see how that contradicts Paul's writing to the Ephesians?

The proper understanding of this Scripture cannot be overstated.

In other words, "if you guys could just understand the scripture, you'd be proper, worthy Calvinists, just like us."

I remind the Reader that the origin of our faith has been an ongoing dispute through the Ages.

Satan has always been about the business of stealing the glory of God and giving it to another.

Perhaps there are some Readers who are beginning to see the ‘light?’

In other words, "these non-Calvinists are blinded and misguided by Satan but hopefully some of them will come around."

 

[Protestant]

Are you saying that faith is a work? Do you not see how that contradicts Paul's writing to the Ephesians?

Tony, I appreciate your hanging in there.

It is claimed by those of your camp that faith is man's gift to God.

They do not include faith as that which is 'not of yourselves.'

They believe the gift of God is salvation, but faith is not included as His gift.

I am saying that Paul explicitly teaches faith is the gracious gift of God, both to Abraham as well as his spiritual seed. (Romans 4:16)

By recognizing justifying faith as the gracious gift of God, Paul explains that God has infallibly insured that those He elected will certainly come to glory.

In His infinite wisdom God has not left salvation up to chance, luck, circumstance, man's feelings or intellect, let alone his ever-changing, fickle will (which is continually hostile to God).

Anything which man contributes to his salvation is called 'works.'

Faith is a work --- the miraculous work of God

It takes the miracle-working power which raised Christ from the dead to raise sinners from spiritual death, producing in them a living faith in Jesus Christ. (Eph. 1:15-20)

Make sense?

 

[SovereignGrace]

I agree with your statement that sin is what condemns men to Hell. However, I'm struggling to see the justification of this seemingly selective application of God's sovereignty by the Calvinist camp. God is sovereign in electing men unto salvation, but God somehow has no part in the condemnation of men under sin.

God saw all mankind fallen, fallen in Adam. Agree?

Adam sinned and caused the fall. Agree?

Adam is solely at fault. Agree?

God, if He left everyone in that fallen state, everyone would deservedly go to torment. Agree?

However, God in His mercy(He did not have to send His Son to begin with, but He graceously chose to do so) chose a multitude of sinners that no man can # to give to His Son to die for. And you take humberage?

Earlier in our conversation you brought up those who drowned in the flood. I took from your words a sense that God's love was only revealed by Him allowing someone to survive in the physical sense. If that was not your intention, then I apologize for the misapplication and response.

They drowned because of their continual wicked thoughts. The only reason why those eight survived was solely by His grace.

Just for clarification, are you assigning the entirety of humanity prior to the incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus to condemnation simply because they did not "know of His existence?" Are you saying that David was condemned to Hell? Moses? Abraham? Elisha?

They knew of the coming of the Messiah to come. God spoke to the Israelites through the prophets. They looked towards the cross. The Jews were told of Him coming to 'save His people from their sins.

No non-Calvinist will argue that the gospel is not required.

:thumbsup:

So again, just for clarification, every single native American was condemned as non-Elect? The overwhelmingly vast majority of pre-1st-Century Europe, Asia, and Africa were condemned as non-Elect? Every single Aborigine in Australia prior to the coming of the missionaries was condemned as a non-Elect?

Is there another way other than the gospel that anyone can be saved? Can they go to heaven without knowing of Christ's existence?

In your theology, telling people about Christ is the cruelest thing anyone can do. Keeping them from that knowledge and they are saved? All people need to do is move their kids to a deserted island and they are good to go. The first missionary that approaches them, just bust them in their mouth?

When David said "restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation," David really didn't know what he was talking about, as he could not possibly comprehend salvation without absolute knowledge of Jesus Christ? Wait, what about those "in prison?" What about Jesus leading captivity captive? What about those who died "not having received the promise, but having seen it afar off?"

They knew of the Messiah coming. Those who believed in the OT days had the birth of the Spirit. Without the Spirit, they are none of His.

Did He exercise His "irresistible grace" on you? As Icon states, God exercised this grace on him, changing him. Icon states that he had no choice. Were you the same? If so, how can you with any shred of reasonableness, say that God did not force this upon you?

Look, it is like you with your companion. She was different than anyother you had went out with, had dated before. You fell in love with her. Words can not explain it. I had went out with many women, dated quite a few. Many were truly good to me, but something did not 'click'. I was set up for a date with a girl one evening. She was pretty, we had a good time and something 'clicked'. I knew within 1 month she was the one I wanted to bare my last name. It was not because she was prettier, it was not because she treated me better than the others, it was not because she was a better cook, had a better body. It was because "Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate."[Mk. 10:9]

So, God commands all men to repent, only gives the gift of repentance to a few, then condemns the remainder for not doing something that He never allowed them to do in the first place, and you call that righteous and holy? Your argument basically establishes a scenario in which God pronounces judgment on man for not repenting of their sins, yet man could say "you never gave the ability to repent," but God says "still, you failed to repent." You basically have God holding man back from repenting, and then blaming that man for not repenting. How do you not see that?

If anyone deserved salvation, you would have a valid argument. If God withholds that which no man deserves, then if you think that is unfair, you need to take that up with Him, and not I, mon ami.

I'm thinking it's cruel for the exact reason listed above. We are commanded to repent, only a few are given the ability to repent, yet all are blamed. Somehow God is sovereign in giving the ability to some, but His sovereignty isn't even in question by not allowing the remainder to repent, yet blaming them all the same.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?[Rom. 9:19-21]

God had every right to toss everyone into hell after Adam sinned. No one forced Him to send Jesus, He graceously chose to. He could have left us with no remedy for our sins, monsieur. God has mercy on the objects of mercy and wrath on the objects of wrath. One does not go from a object of wrath to an object of mercy, mon ami.

I wish one of you guys would produce a Calvinist Translation of the scripture, so we could all know exactly when God was speaking in terms of everyone and in speaking in terms only of the Elect.

Those that die lost, did Christ take their sins away?

Do you likewise rejoice in God denying the ability to repent and be saved to such a huge majority of humanity?

I am not the one objecting to what He does, monsieur, that is you.

Look, I rejoice in God choosing me as well. The non-Cals that I associate with are also thankful that God chose them. None of us believe that we came to salvation of our own accord. God does all the work. As DHK said "Salvation is by Christ alone, through faith alone, by grace alone." Or, as Ephesians 2:8-9 read "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

And yet if you choose not to accept Him, you will die lost. You will supercedes His.

 

[SovereignGrace]

By that logic, man does not even need to believe, seeing as belief is an exercise of the mind, and therefore can be called a work. Never mind that scripture tells us we must believe, and scripture tells us we must repent. These things are not considered works, though. They are requisites for salvation.

If I am understanding correctly that which I bolded, that is catergorically wrong. We do not believe with the mind. If it is with the mind then reconcile that thought with If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.[Rom. 10:9,10]

I will let you clarify. You may be saying it in that fashion to prove a point and not mean it as I read it.


But that is why sinners can not believe UNLESS first quickened. Sinners' hearts are corrupted by sin. Jesus in Matthew 7 addresses this issue of good and bad trees. Good trees bring good fruit and bad trees bring bad fruit. Sinners are 'bad trees' and only produce bad fruit. It takes God to change them from producing bad to good fruit. This is regeneration at work by taking away a sin corrupted heart and giving them a new heart. [Ez. 11:19 & 36:26]

 

[Protestant]

I wish one of you guys would produce a Calvinist Translation of the scripture, so we could all know exactly when God was speaking in terms of everyone and in speaking in terms only of the Elect.

Tony, what those of our camp are doing is taking Scripture teachings on salvation, including the eternal purpose of God in Christ, election, grace and its many adjuncts, the sin nature of man, the attributes of God, including His need for justice, and putting the 'jig-saw' puzzle together so that all the pieces actually fit.

We also attempt to teach these supernatural truths through exposing the views of your camp to scrutiny.

By so doing, the inconsistencies come to light.

Truth is not inconsistent.

Does God command each man repent and believe the Gospel?

Yes.

Is the command futile and useless?

No, because by it the Elect are called and the Reprobate are told the truthful way of salvation.

It is the duty of man to believe God.

Those who have heard are without excuse.

The fault of their unbelief is not the fault of God, neither is God obligated to give man that which he does not deserve: saving grace.

The Reprobates will receive exactly what they do deserve, punishment commensurate with their crimes.

I realize this study is difficult. Peter acknowledged as much.

However, the doctrines of which we speak are revealed in God's Word for good reason.

The Lord wills His people understand the true nature of His grace as well as the true nature of His sovereignty.

Our camp bows in submission to the wisdom, holiness and righteousness of God's infinitely perfect will.

We embrace His judgment and ways willingly with great humility and humbleness of heart.

 

[SovereignGrace]

DHK,

What is your view of And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.[Rom. 8:28-30]

 

[SovereignGrace]

You are over-simplifying, generalizing, and otherwise mis-representing the views of non-Calvinists. No non-Calvinist would accuse God of wrongdoing. We simply teach and preach the revelation we find in the scriptures and under the guidance of the Spirit. We've listed for you numerous times the invitations found in the scripture. That's all we can do. We can't help it that your side turns scripture on its head and says those invitations are not for all, but are instead only for the Elect.

Look, we invite everybody in the gospel we preach. However, it takes God to draw them inwardly. Now, if you do a Greek word study of the word 'draw' it means to draw, drag off, to draw by inward power, lead, impel Our preaching only reaches the ears of the flesh, it takes God to reach the ears of the spiritual man. When He draws, He does so as those usages say.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast." So what is faith? Is not faith a trust and belief in God? So man has to believe God to be saved, but that means that man has some sort of say in the status of his salvation. Remember, from our point of view, the gift is wholly of God, and wholly offered by God. Just because He allows us the will to accept or reject Him does not make us the originator or provider of the gift.

You left off the most important portion, "and not of yourselves." And the gifts and calling of God are not repentant of, unregretted[Rom. 11:29]

In other words, "if you guys could just understand the scripture, you'd be proper, worthy Calvinists, just like us."

None said that in my opinion.

In other words, "these non-Calvinists are blinded and misguided by Satan but hopefully some of them will come around."

None said that. Keep your gloves up or I will have to deduct 1 point. :laugh::smilewinkgrin:

Mon ami. Obligatory french word, monsieur. :tongue3:

 

[Iconoclast]

PreachTony

Hello PT.

I see this issue disturbs you. It never was an issue for me, but I will try and help remove some obstacles for you

So an Elect person on whom the "Irresistible Grace" of God falls will have no option but to believe and be saved?

I am not certain what you mean by how you express this...let me explain it this way from the confession of faith; watch how these men explain step by step what scripture speaks of.....

1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time,
effectually to call,

{PT..men resist God, men resist the general call, that is the outward preaching and the teaching,and reading of scripture.}

by his Word and Spirit,

out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature,

to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;

enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;

taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh;

renewing their wills,

and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good,

and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;

yet so as they come most freely,


being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

The language is not of force at all ...you make it sound like something painful.
I have never met a Cal who said....I am so sorry God forced me to believe.

And you guys don't see that as God forcing salvation on the Elect (and likewise forcing damnation on the non Elect)?

No...let me explain why. The fall forced damnation on all men. Sin and death lead to hell. There is no such thing as election unto hell...

All died in Adam.....all without exception.....If God does not intervene in history...all would be in hell justly for their sins...

That is what must first be understood.....All died....all deserve hell.....

What if that was the end of the story? We would all be in hell as that is all we deserve.

But God who is rich in mercy...has purposed to save a multitude in His Son.

Now.....Cals believe that an infinite and perfectly Holy ,wise, Loving God who is both just and righteous...we believe and trust that He is going to save all
That He can wisely save. I would never question God's design, I would never question God's election.
In fact when I see some of you men question God I find it quite disturbing.
It is a lack of faith, and a lack of trust in God's omniscience.
As if you men know better what a Holy righteous God should do....more than God himself.

You really think that God doesn't force you into whatever state you will be in, seeing as you have no option at all?

When I was unsaved, when any elect person was unsaved they were still in rebellion and resisted God. That is why God seeks and saves us....by whatever means is necessary....preaching ,teaching, conviction, providence, affliction, he has ordained means to give us eyes to see.
Any sinful rebellion on our part falls away when we are given a new heart and eyes to see, and ears to hear.

You say "the theogical term speaks of the saving grace of God which is granted to the elect that is not ultimately rejected."

Theologians make a distinction between a saving believe,{saving faith granted by God} and carnal natural human trust where men are said to "believe in vain"
1 Corinthians 15King James Version (KJV)

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Does that mean that there are Elect people who do reject the call?

I resisted God for years....but when He effectually drew me to the Son....at first I did not even know He existed, I did not know He was drawing me, I was not seeking Him, I wanted to resist everything about Christianity.....
But God had already set His love on me.....when the Spirit dealt with me it was no contest.....There was no doubt, there was no question at all.

Again, if not, you cannot say that God is not forcing salvation on man. If man has no option but to accept the grace of God, then it is not a "free choice" on his part.

When God gives the new nature it all changes.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

What is your view of And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.[Rom. 8:28-30]

Exactly what it says. He speaks only to believers. There is nothing there about the predestination or election of the unregenerate of unsaved. It is always about the saved, that after they are saved they should be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. It has to do with service. Predestination and election always looks forward to the believer, not the unbeliever.

 

[SovereignGrace]

PreachTony,

Say I have $10,000,000 dollars, it is mine, and mine alone. Now, do I have a right to keep it to myself or give it money to people who I deem needy of it? By your standards, I must offer money to everybody I come into contact with or I am being unjust, not giving some to some people and giving money to others. Now, I am sure you are going to throw out that I would be unjust to give it to one asking me for some cash and not to some who are also asking for some cash.

Here is the thing, though...no one is asking God for His saving grace in the sinful, fallen state. They want nothing to do with Him, they run from Him. I witness to many people who do not realize they are spiritually broke. They realize they do not “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’[Luke 14:28-30]

Jesus backed up what I just posted when He said “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’Matt. 20:13-15]

You guys act like God is entitled to make an offer to everybody, even those who never knew He existed. God did not have to make a covenant with His Son, but He chose to. He then chose a multitude of sinners(none could have been saved and He would still be just, mon ami), but you think we are making Him unfair by stating He does not offer everybody a chance at the table.

If He saved 'goose-egg', would He still be just, PreachTony?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Exactly what it says. He speaks only to believers. There is nothing there about the predestination or election of the unregenerate of unsaved. It is always about the saved, that after they are saved they should be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. It has to do with service. Predestination and election always looks forward to the believer, not the unbeliever.

Here are some of the usages of 'foreknows'...


of those whom God elected to salvation, to predestinate.


So it is much more than saying God just knew who would, but rather, He foreknows them because He chose them and planted them in Christ. He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.[Matt. 15:13]

So what you are conveying is the 'foreseen faith election' where God looked down through time and saw those who would accept Him(have faith) and then elected them. Those He did not choose were those who did not have faith, therefore, your 'everybody has faith' mantra has no basis in scripture.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I have never heard of the term.

I have never heard the term before SG, so I don't claim it is my position.

For someone who has not heard the term, you sure do believe the doctrine hook, line and sinker.


Here is one of your posts in a snippet.

Posted by DHK

This is what I said and what you are replying to:

God elected those whom he knew beforehand would believe on him. It is called omniscience.

It is also what the Bible teaches.
...being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
--The purpose of predestination is to to the praise of his glory.

That is the 'foreseen faith doctrine' to a 'tee'. Now, if God looked down through time and elected those who would believe, then He did not elect those who did not believe. So then 'not all men have faith.' :thumbsup:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2243188&postcount=19

 

[SovereignGrace]

Posted by DHK

Those, whom he knew before hand, would believe on his name.

He did know beforehand who would believe on him. On that basis they were predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son.
Predestination never refers to the unsaved, always to the believer.

God elected those whom he knew beforehand would believe on him. It is called omniscience.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2243130&postcount=14


And here's another dandy:

Posted by DHK

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
--He has elected us according to His foreknowledge.
Let's not redefine foreknowledge. It is just what it says it is--knowing aforetime or ahead of time, similar to His omniscience.
He knew before the foundation of the world who, of their own free will (which, within the boundaries of his Sovereignty, he has allowed man) who would receive him or reject him. On that basis he chose those that received him and damned those that rejected him.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2204497&postcount=196


I have now show you three posts where the doctrine you have never heard of, you are lock-step with it.

 

[DHK]

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2243130&postcount=14

And here's another dandy:


http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2204497&postcount=196

I have now show you three posts where the doctrine you have never heard of, you are lock-step with it.

You will have to trust me on this. Don't infer or even call me a liar.
I have never heard the name before, nor anyone categorize it as a distinct theology. Just because someone has similar beliefs to mine in some respects and then puts a name to it does not mean I believe in "his theology." Perhaps it is him believing in mine.
But in reality perhaps we have some things in common, but it is doubtful that we have all things in common. Two men rarely agree on everything.

 

[DHK]

Here are some of the usages of 'foreknows'...


of those whom God elected to salvation, to predestinate.


So it is much more than saying God just knew who would, but rather, He foreknows them because He chose them and planted them in Christ. He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.[Matt. 15:13]

So what you are conveying is the 'foreseen faith election' where God looked down through time and saw those who would accept Him(have faith) and then elected them. Those He did not choose were those who did not have faith, therefore, your 'everybody has faith' mantra has no basis in scripture.

Basically you deny the words of Christ, every time he turned to an individual and sad to them "thy faith has made the whole" or "be it according to your faith."
You can't explain the Roman Centurion's faith, of whom Jesus said he had greater faith than any one else in Israel. You have never answered those arguments, and probably never will.