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Featured An honest critique Monsieurs.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by SovereignGrace, Sep 28, 2015.

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  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Yes, God is holy. The Scripture says we identify with God when we love ALL, even our enemies. You really have no way around this. You are trying to dismiss it. Declaring God is holy actually confirms it. God's very attribute of holiness is what causes Him to love everyone. God is love. You make the common mistake of misconstruing God's holy and just wrath on the unbelievers as being void of love. Let me ask you a question , when the wrath of a parent comes down on a disobedient child, is this a hateful wrath? God's love is perfect. God's wrath is always directed towards the sin, whether it be present or future as when He said Esau have I hated.
     
    #41 steaver, Oct 14, 2015
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  2. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    YES!! Never stated anything to the contrary.

    Before doing anything good or bad, God hated Esau. God hates Satan. God hates those who work iniquity(not iniquity per se, but them who perform iniquity). So God does not love everyone.

    Now trying to get around God's love. Just your mangled view of it.

    Uhhhhh, no. Just your mangled views.


    So in His holiness He also loves Satan and those angels who also fell? Those residing in hell, He loves them too? That sure sounds like love to me. :rolleyes:



    Yes He is. But He is also a God of wrath, vengence, justice, too. All of these were satiated by Christ's propitious works of the cross. Those who Jesus died for will receive mercy and grace, and not vengence, wrath, and justice.


    Your mangled version is the mistake, Monsieur. God pours out His love on the vessels of mercy, not the vessels of wrath. Study Romans 9. God pours out His wrath on the vessels of wrath. Again, study Romans 9.


    Okay.

    God chastens His children Monsieur. He does not pour out wrath on them.

    YES!!!

    Uhhhh, no. God's wrath is directed at, poured out on sinners.


    Before one good or bad act, God hated Esau. He hated Him because He was not a chosen sheep. God's love is poured out on His sheep. His wrath is poured out upon the goats.
     
    #42 SovereignGrace, Oct 14, 2015
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  3. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Do you hate your mother and father? Your children, your brothers and sisters? Your wife?
     
    #43 steaver, Oct 14, 2015
  4. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    No. But they never offended me like sinners did and are doing to God. So your questions FAIL!!!
     
    #44 SovereignGrace, Oct 14, 2015
  5. nailah783

    nailah783 Member

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    You never know who you are going to come across or what their needs are going to be. I drive cab, and a woman got in my can and she was crying. Her daughter had kicked her out, and was very abusive to her. She had also called the police on her and was trying to get her arrested. Her daughter is very heavy into drug use, and she didn't know what she could do to help her grandchildren get out of the situation. I don't normally do this, but as soon as she handed me the money from her ride, I took her hands and just prayed for and with her. She was so happy I did that with her, she started crying even harder because she was blessed by having me be her driver that day, and I was blessed by hearing her story because you never know how bad it can get. You may think that you are going through, but there is always someone going through worse.
     
    #45 nailah783, Oct 14, 2015
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  6. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Amen! Did you tell her about Jesus dying for her?
     
    #46 steaver, Oct 15, 2015
  7. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Where in the passage did Jesus say "if they offend you, then you should hate them"? Here is what he said....

    "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

    Also it says God hated Esau BEFORE he ever offended (did anything right or wrong) so my question is not failing but your answer is.
     
    #47 steaver, Oct 15, 2015
  8. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Don't forget to provide your proof brothers and sister. The board is waiting.......
     
    #48 steaver, Oct 15, 2015
  9. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    You really need to do an indepth study on propitiation. Not being snarky, so please do not take it that way. By Christ's propitious works of the cross, God put His focus on His hatred of sin upon Christ. God hates sin so much that in His holiness, He poured out His wrath, His hatred(yes, God hated His Son while on the cross, being the symbol of sin) upon Him. Now that His wrath, His justice has been satisified, He can now justify the wicked. But yes, those questions you asked me earlier failed. My parents, wife, family, friends, even any enemies I may ever have had, never offended me in the way mankind has God.
     
    #49 SovereignGrace, Oct 15, 2015
  10. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Your reiterating your family did not "offend" you. The passage has nothing to do with them offending you. Esau did not offend God for he was not yet born, did not yet do anything right or wrong. And to say God hated the Son at the point He took on sin is ridiculous, but that is where Calvinism leads. God hates the SIN. When God looked away it is because God hates sin so much it pained Him to see it on His precious Son, but yet it had to be done.....
     
    #50 steaver, Oct 15, 2015
  11. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    You realize in this position you take you are declaring Jesus Christ offended God? Face it, God does not "hate" as we humans understand or apply the word hate. His ways are far above our ways...
     
    #51 steaver, Oct 15, 2015
  12. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    This very post shows your hatred of the gospel. God hates all that work iniquity. Not just the sin, but those who sin(insert sinner). God hates Satan and those angels who rebelled(sinned) in heaven before the creation of the world.

    Your truncated gospel? You can have it Monsieur.
     
    #52 SovereignGrace, Oct 15, 2015
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  13. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    You keep neutering the gospel Monsieur. This 'God is love' is the mantra of the LGBT community.
     
    #53 SovereignGrace, Oct 15, 2015
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  14. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    The arrogant cannot stand in Your presence. You hate all who do wrong.[Psa. 5:5]

    This 'God hates the sin but not the sinner' is wonderful bumper sticker theology, but horrible doctrine.
     
    #54 SovereignGrace, Oct 15, 2015
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  15. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    We've gotten off track from the OP...


    UPDATE:

    That girl was discharged two days after being admitted. I do not know anything else about her now. I pray that, through God's providence, our paths cross in the future. But I do not have any new info on her status. Just please pray for her.
     
    #55 SovereignGrace, Oct 15, 2015
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  16. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    You are still missing the part that Esau was "hated" by God BEFORE he did anything right or wrong. There is no "offense" spoken of either with Esau or with your family who you are instructed to hate. So all these rabbit trails and deflection is not helping your case.

    "God hated His Son"? And you declare I hate the gospel? Really?

    "If a person cannot argue the issue he will usually try to argue the semantics. If he is too ignorant to argue the semantics he will usually try to argue personality."

    "If you can't answer a man's argument all is not lost you can still call him vile names" Elbert Hubbard.
     
    #56 steaver, Oct 15, 2015
  17. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    When Adam sinned all mankind was imputed Adam's sin. If God had not sent Jesus, that hatred would have been upon all mankind. That is what propitiation means. It satiated, appeased God's wrath, God's justice. Christ's propitious works was for those chosen from the creation of the world. Esau, not chosen by God, was an object of God's wrath. Read Romans 9.

    Your truncated, neutered gospel? You can have it. It will not save one soul.
     
    #57 SovereignGrace, Oct 15, 2015
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  18. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Adam's sinned was imputed upon his posterity in the exact fashion Christ's righteousness is imputed unto His sheep.
     
    #58 SovereignGrace, Oct 15, 2015
  19. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    This is the sad reality of what Calvinism does to a person. This isn't just one person. We see on just this thread alone that four people here believe that if you do not agree with Calvinism's version of things, then you hate the Gospel and cannot be saved.

    On the other side, the non-Cals, I have yet to see them ever declare a Calvinist hating the Gospel or being unsaved.

    Here we have four Calvinist declaring a non-Cal hating the Gospel and of course if anyone hates the Gospel they certainly would not be saved as SG has added.

    They say no it is just YOU Steaver. Name one thing I said that any non-Cal does not say the same.

    This thread has been very illuminating indeed!
     
    #59 steaver, Oct 15, 2015
  20. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    You was the one who started it on its downward spiral Monsieur. If you do not like it, do not post. No one is forcing you to post your foolishness.
     
    #60 SovereignGrace, Oct 15, 2015
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