Featured What Does Repent Mean?

Post 2 (continuation of prior post response)

Let me point out, I and absoluters, do agree with the conditionalist brethren that God has people in every nation, kindred, tribe, and tongue. However these people will not live in an ignorant state, rather they will go to to heaven having known who Jesus is through divine revelation and having faith in such Him along with the repentance that God grants to His people at regeneration. Hebrews 8:11 makes this clear that the Spirit can and sovereignly does teach his children to "know the Lord" without the aid of the gospel preacher, will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest"

Also, many of the condtionalist brothers wrongly contend that some children of God will go to heaven without ever knowing the gospel, but Revelation plainly states, "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people," This angel is none other than Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the living Word that does this sometimes never corresponding with having the gospel preacher get to the person during their life one earth to every nation, kindred, etc.

# 4) All the gentiles after receiving the gospel preached by Paul abandoned their pagan religions, no example is given of any who stayed in their current religion yet were children of God.# 5) To maintain that one can have the Holy Spirit in them, but yet reject the gospel or live carnally their entire life is basically to maintain the flesh is stronger than the Spirit in us. #6) The doctrine of conditional time salvation falsely teaches we earn and or forfeit blessings in this time world through our obedience or disobedience, but the scripture tells, us, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (Ephesians 1:3) This verse clearly teaches us God gave use all spiritual blessings before we had done anything. We are to obey due to grace as our motivator and through Christ in us as our flesh cannot obey as "in me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing". To obey to earn blessings or to avoid forfeiting blessings is no different for the reason we work, in order to earn wages and forfeit benefits from our job. We are not "hired servants". A blessing is an unmerited grace, a reward is what is earned, thus there thus goes conditional time salvation out the window 7) Conditional time salvation can't be the truth because in regeneration the flesh does not improve, this is why Paul says in his flesh ,"dwelleth no good thing", therefore the living our lives in a Godly manner after regeneration must solely depend on Christ in us as he said , "without me you can do nothing". 8) Conditional time salvation is a new doctrine that developed shortly after the civil war and is held almost exclusively by Conditionlist old Line Primitives and no other group in the world. 9) Conditionalists deny that "all things work for good to those who love God", despite the plain teaching of scripture and instead say the "all things" only mean the things that get one to heaven because to admit "all things" in fact means "all things" would prove the doctrine of conditional time salvation to be false. 10) The doctrine of absolute predestination of all things, unlike conditional time salvation, can be found throughout Baptist history in such things as the London Baptist Confession of faith of 1689 that states, “Paragraph 1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;
1 Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15,18” 10) Those who are truly of God will not stay in Babylon with works religion, “Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. (2 Corinthians 6:17).

Once again, please forgive me for my “essay of a post” . I am just vehemently opposed to the false doctrine of conditional time salvation. I have studied both sides of the issue from leading Primitives from the absoluter predestinarian camp and the conditional camp (you may have heard of one-Michael Gowens from your home state). I was a member of a conditional Primitive church for over 10 years) and am now a member of the absoluter variety so I have also heard many sermons from elders on both sides of the aisle. I have concluded conditional time salvation is a work doctrine that makes those who believe in the 5 points of grace change to works after their rebirth to pursue their own sanctification. This was the false doctrine that Paul had to write to the brothers in the church of Galatia about and ask, “Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” (Gal 3:3) I am glad God caused me to escape it’s hold as for a time I too believed it.

God bless,



Brother Joe

 

Hi brother KY,

You are right, there were those who believed in Jesus in private for fear of the Jews, but scripture does not give us a record to conclude they continued this way until their death. Take for example the disciplies, they were meeting in secret after Christ's death for fear of the Jews, but after Jesus appeared to them resurrected they went out and not only boldly confessed and preached him to those who crucified Him, but started the New Testament church in the book of Acts.

Also regarding your example of Joseph of Arimathaea, it is written, " went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus." (Mark 15:43). As far as Nicodemus, yes he came to Jesus at night in secret in John 3, that he later came publicly to aid in the burial preparations of Christ, "And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. 40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. (John 19:39-40). That doesn't sound like he was a secret believer at that point to do such a thing.

Moreover, Jesus himself plainly said, "32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 10:32-33). Believers may deny or believe in secret for a time as some Jews indeed did in the gospel and how Peter denied Christ, but Peter later openly confessed and preached Christ crucified boldly before thousands in Acts 2 at Pentecost. He was no longer hiding in a room. God changed him drastically. True belief from those who have heard the gospel preacher will result in the sign of confession of Christ, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" (Romans 10:9)

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Brother, I agree with you that repentance is a change of mind that occurs at regeneration, but the fruit of repentance is a resulting change in behavior. This is why John the Baptist said, "Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance" (Luke 3:8) before he would baptize them. Do you agree repentance which is a change in mind results in a change in behavior in obeying the law of God? (And no I am not teaching sinless perfectionism after regeneration as we will all sin, and sometimes gross sins, as long as we are in this fleshly tabernacle).

 

I do not maintain repentance is part of the gospel. Paul lays out the gospel in Corinthians. It is a declaration of Christ dying for sinners and being risen again! "
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Cor 15:1-2, 4). It is a declaration of a fact that Christ has Saved his people 2,000 years ago. This is the legal point of justification his blood, life, and resurrection. "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:9), and, "Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification" (Romans 4:25), "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:18). Justification by faith is a separate justification in a child of god's experience in this life by which through the gospel a child of God has faith that he was justified legally by blood. In short, the gospel simply tells His elect how they were legally justified.

Now what I do maintain is that His elect upon hearing the gospel will repent and believe, Do you believe the elect will repent upon hearing the gospel? (Note I am not maintaining one repents to get saved, but repents because they have become saved).

Further, while it is true as you said did not emphasize repentance to the gentile church of Rome as they were already converted believers and as such would have already heard repentance preach and did not need to here it preached again (this is why he didn't reemphasize it), on the other hand did he not preach repentance to the Greeks in Athens who had never heard of Christ? "30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained" (Acts 17:30-31) Here Paul emphasizes God's command of repentance and connects to be "because" of the coming judgment day.

 

I don't think the ministry of John the Baptist is a good one to use for comparison. He was warning unsaved Pharisees. He was telling them that they needed to repent, and then bring forth fruit or evidence of their repentance before he baptized them. But that repentance had nothing to do with regeneration. They were repenting of sins; Jewish sins; national sins. This was pre-cross, OT theology. He was the fore-runner for Christ.

In NT theology there is repentance necessary for salvation, which takes place at the same time one puts their faith in Christ. It is part and parcel of faith. They can't be divided.
Then, what you are describing, their is repentance for the believer, after salvation. Every time we sin we need to confess that sin, repent of it, and keep on going. That is a result of the change that Christ has wrought in our lives, and will keep on changing. As long as we are growing, changing, etc., I look at that as part of the progressive sanctification of the believer--a process of becoming more and more holy; closer to the Lord.

 

I have to of course disagree with your dispensational view of John the Baptist's baptism. These Pharisees needed to repent of their works based theology in recognition that the messiah of God was at hand as John had preached, thus salvation was of grace, but they believed it to be of dead works and besides this people were saved under the old covenant in the same manner as the new.

 

Repentance and faith go together. When one has faith in Christ he repents.

Repentance and faith take place at the same time. Repentance is a change of mind. If a person did not change his mind or attitude toward God it is impossible for him to be saved. He is a criminal before God, and in rebellion to him. He needs a change in that attitude and become submissive to Him. Repentance is a change of mind in respect to one's attitude to God. If that change does not occur before salvation, how then can he be saved?
However, faith in Christ accomplishes that same change that we call repentance.

The entire theme of the Book of Romans is soteriology. He explains the very basics of salvation to them. That is not the reason he does not emphasize repentance (because they were already saved). He does emphasize faith:
Justified by faith.
Made righteous by faith.
saved by faith.
Call on the name of the Lord and be saved.
Believe in thy heart...and be saved.

All the way through: faith and believe. And the result of that faith is salvation. It is a simple message. Repentance is not included because it is included in "faith."

 

I think most here agree that "regeneration" as such did not begin until Pentecost.
In the OT they were justified, made righteous, but the new birth or regeneration is a term saved for those who became indwelt with the Holy Spirit, that is from Pentecost onward.

 

He has more fun when he makes up what he thinks he wants you to say than what you actually said.

 

This is the whole point of the disagreement in my opinion. You maintain repentance and faith happen before one is born again to become born again, I maintain it happens at the time one is born again-immediately afterwards. The reason being is life must precede action, therefore one who is dead in sins must first be made quickened and receive the Holy Ghost to produce the "fruit of faith" and the grace of repentance. The carnal mind is "at enmity with God, and this is all an unsaved person has before regeneration, thus they cannot repent until they are given the "mind of Christ" at regeneration. This is why Jesus said "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God." In that sense your question of If that change does not occur before salvation, how then can they be saved" is a valid one. They first need a new hear and a new mind. (After regeneration, though the child of God now has the "inner man" with the "mind of Christ", they also stil the "outward man" that perishes with the "carnal mind), thus pursues the warfare between two people inside the child of God which in turns creates a constant ongoing need for repentance.

 

You're describing a salvation by works

 

No, I am describing sola fide, something you threw out the window years ago.

 

You are incorrect, those who believe in the five points of grace (which are most on this thread) do believe that Old Testament saints were regenerated. Not sure what Biblical evidence you would hope to produce that would affirm such an assertion that they were not. Fact is, with all due respect to you brother, this understanding is quite wrong. The OT often used terminology such as God "circumcising" the heart to indicate a work regeneration:

"And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." (Deut 30:6)

Notice first God circumcise their hearts, then they loved God. Sometimes in the Old Testament God even reveals behind the scenes how He enabled particular Jews to obey his Word when they were called to repent: In 2 Chronicles chapter 30, for example, when couriers with a message of repentance passed from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh, and as far as Zebulun, they laughed them to scorn and mocked them when they were called to repent, "Nevertheless some men of Asher, Manasseh and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem. The hand of God was also on Judah to give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the LORD." (Chronicles 30:11-12)

The text says some tribes resisted the call to repentance, but only those tribes which the HAND OF GOD GAVE A HEART to obey THE WORD, repented. So here is a clear instance of the Spirit of God working faith and repentance in the hearts of certain persons among Israel while leaving others to their own rebellious self-will...

There should also therefore be no confusing the filling of the Holy Spirit and the Spirit's work of regeneration. They may be organically connected but they are not the same. One is the Spirit's work to renew the heart ... the other is the Spirit's indwelling. Indwelling is referring to the Holy Spirit's positive, pervasive, abiding, covenant presence in believers through the Spirit. The OT saints had the former with only limited presence of the latter. This is why Jesus told the disciples prior to his resurrection that the Holy Spirit was "with them" but would be (future tense) "in them" (John 14:17)

 

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Before the new birth the Word of God must be preached. One is born again by the Word of God.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
As a result of hearing the Word of God faith comes. It is not a supernatural grace imposed upon man by God. It is confidence gained in the truth or veracity of the gospel by listening to the living Word, the Holy Spirit also convicting of sin.

God takes the sinner and reconciles him unto Himself. We are ambassadors for him as we take the gospel and allow the gospel to do its work, God using us as His vessels.
2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

 

Brother DHK,

No disrespect, but I thought you had said in a prior post when Brother Icon and I tried to get you to answer how the mentally handicap, the aborted, and those dying in infancy are born again without the gospel preacher, you told us we must start a different thread to discuss regeneration of such folks, but now you have just made a very long post reply to me that you expect me to reply to supporting your doctrine of gospel regeneration, this is very much the same thing you said Brother Icon and I would have to start a new thread for. I think there is a double standard here! I am not going to reply to this post as it is unrelated to the OP of repentance, perhaps you can create a different thread if you so desire.

 

And acts 15 they said except you be circumsized after the matter of Moses you cannot be saved
you're basically saying the same thing except you have a change of attitude or change your mind you cannot be saved.
you're saying except a man do something he cannot be saved that is not the salvation by grace of the Bible teaches

 

That OT comparison is pretty tough to make. Israel was God's elect, God's called-out nation from the beginning. They are called out and from the other nations of the world. Therefore your illustration falls short. The unrepentant Israelite is more like an unrepentant Christian. He has already been called of God.
Circumcision has no comparison and nothing to do with regeneration.
However some would try to make a case for infant baptism.

You may have a point here. But in the OT the work of the Spirit was simply when the Spirit came upon an individual and then left. He came upon Saul for a short period of time when he was among the prophets. When The Spirit came upon the prophet he would prophesy. There was no permanent relationship. There is a permanent relationship once the Spirit (in the NT) comes and renews the heart. And from that time onward the believer is indwelt. That only started at Pentecost.

 

It is the exact same thing except when DHK does it it's different somehow...
Lol

 

An infant has as much power to repent as a rock does. The topic of the thread is "What does it mean to repent"? Thus infants, et. al. are another topic.

Your opinion. The gospel is the gospel. If one is to be saved he must believe the gospel, that is put his faith in Christ. Repentance comes at the same time. That is the subject of this thread isn't it?
My belief is that regeneration and salvation if there is a difference take place at the same time. Thus the gospel and faith in the gospel must precede both.
No, you don't have to reply to me. But that is why it is not off topic.