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Divorce and Remarriage before Salvation

Zaac

Well-Known Member
Good grief, I feel like I'm just repeating myself at this point. Clearly we're not getting anywhere. I don't know if you're just being contrary or missing the point or misunderstanding me (it sounds almost like you think I think the adultery on the part of the saved person is what makes the moving on okay, but that is not what I'm saying and never was), or what. Thanks for the discussion, let's agree to disagree.

eta: Just so it's clear, I always drop out of debates before too long, so this isn't unusual for me. A day or two is pretty standard. I appreciate the mental exercise debate gives me, and I really have learned a lot from making myself participate in debates in general. But as someone who dislikes conflict it stresses me out, so I either avoid debate exchanges or drop them after a certain point.

No, I understand EXACTLY what you're saying. You think that because they have "moved on" and are having sex in the new relationships that they now meet the standard of adultery and it's okay to not go back to the original marriage since they've both technically committed adultery.

The answer is still no. There are no loopholes.

They were never divorced and doing that which BIBLICALLY okays a divorce under the wrong pretenses does not then grant a BIBLICAL divorce.

They are still married and are now committing adultery every time they have sex with these new "spouses".

Be well.
 
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evenifigoalone

Well-Known Member
No, I understand EXACTLY what you're saying. You think that because they have "moved on" and are having sex in the new relationships that they now meet the standard of adultery and it's okay to not go back to he original marriage since they've both technically committed adultery.

The answer is still no. There are no loopholes.

They were never divorced and doing that which BIBLICALLY okays a divorce under the wrong pretenses does not then grant a BIBLICAL divorce.

They are still married and are now committing adultery every time they have sex with these new "spouses".

Be well.
*facepalm* Yeah, missing my point entirely. I have no patience left. Bye.
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
Well Zaac I want to thank you for freeing me from wasting the rest of my life trying to serve the Lord, when you and your alter ego on the other thread have clearly declared me a unrepentant sinner for being married to a divorced woman.

Stop smelling yourself. Are you a follower of Jesus Christ? Your sins are forgiven.

Is the original spouse of the divorced woman still alive? Did she divorce him for the allowed Biblical reasons? If she did, she's free to remarry.

You have determined that I am not allowed to be saved, or in my case was never really saved, or maybe I lost my salvation.

Again, stop smelling yourself so that you can build up to trying to make a point. I haven't said anything about anyone "not being allowed to be saved or never having been saved or losing salvation". So if you're gonna pull me into your little rant, pull me in for something I said.:rolleyes:

You have made it clear that myself, and all others like me will be in hell while you and the ones you tell Jesus that it is OK to let into His Heaven, party with the angels.

man, I don't even have the will power to further address you and this foolishness over something I HAVE NOT said.
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
Questdriven - You asked about abuse and I'll tell you what we've told women in that situation (we've dealt only with women but I know that there are men who can be abused as well). We've told them to immediately get out and get safe. We will even have some of our men go over to help when needed so that the woman can get her stuff and leave (and with the children if they are involved). We have at times helped to support the woman in leaving (financially) and the couple MUST be in serious counseling. If for some reason it is deemed that the man is not safe for the woman, we will recommend that she separate from him and in some cases even divorce him (to protect herself and the kids).

And THIS is completely unBIBLICAL.

In most cases the law is involved as well and we will support the woman through the trial and court issues. Abuse is a serious breech of the marriage covenant.

This is shameful. For as serious as abuse is, it IS NOT a God-given BIBLICAL reason for divorce and for the Church of Jesus Christ to be counseling folks to do so is untenable.
NsphD.gif


But as I've said many times, the world is in the state it is because of CHRISTIAN disobedience not because of the disobedience of the lost. For it is those who say they are in the Body of Christ who continue to unrepentantly sin like this while refusing to even acknowledge the sin as sin.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
And THIS is completely unBIBLICAL.



This is shameful. For as serious as abuse is, it IS NOT a God-given BIBLICAL reason for divorce and for the Church of Jesus Christ to be counseling folks to do so is untenable.
NsphD.gif


But as I've said many times, the world is in the state it is because of CHRISTIAN disobedience not because of the disobedience of the lost. For it is those who say they are in the Body of Christ who continue to unrepentantly sin like this while refusing to even acknowledge the sin as sin.

You say it's shameful to protect women and children? Interesting.
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
You say it's shameful to protect women and children? Interesting.

Don't play dumb. You can read. If I had made the statement you are now implying that I made, quote it.

The interesting thing is that you're now taking to telling lies to personally attack me because of what I DID say vs what you imply that I say.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Don't play dumb. You can read. If I had made the statement you are now implying that I made, quote it.

The interesting thing is that you're now taking to telling lies to personally attack me because of what I DID say vs what you imply that I say.


Here is exactly what I said (you quoted it) and then you responded:

In most cases the law is involved as well and we will support the woman through the trial and court issues. Abuse is a serious breech of the marriage covenant.

This is shameful. For as serious as abuse is, it IS NOT a God-given BIBLICAL reason for divorce and for the Church of Jesus Christ to be counseling folks to do so is untenable.
NsphD.gif

So again - it is shameful to protect women and children?
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
Here is exactly what I said (you quoted it) and then you responded:





So again - it is shameful to protect women and children?

So again, stop trying to justify your lying. :rolleyes:Reading comprehension works wonders. You're one of the last people I expected to pull something like this.

The sentences you reference were written together in the same paragraph for good reason.
 

preachinjesus

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The same way we do with salvation. Just because you may not be aware that you need to be saved does not absolve you from going to hell.

They aren't absolved of child support and they aren't absolved of the covenant just because they thought all they had to do to get out of it was get a divorce.

I don't believe anyone in this thread is saying that becoming a Christian relinquishes one from obligations and legal contracts.

It should be. But we don't mete out said grace the same. Again, we the Church, tell homosexuals all the time that they must repent of their sin and stop committing it if they are going to be saved and in good standing in the church. Why doesn't the same apply for adulterers?

I don't know about your church, but in the church where I serve we believe and preach that coming to faith in Christ requires no special knowledge but simply to place one's faith in Christ. The result of that faith will compel those who are saved to live in accordance with their salvation which means chastity until biblical marriage (between one woman and one man) is in place and all sexual activity is to be practiced within that bond.

I am all for extending grace and believe that if you are saved, God will forgive the adultery. But so many in the church demand this type of grace, but aren't willing to extend it when it doesn't involve THEIR sin.

So its okay for a Christian to commit adultery because they know they'll be forgiven?

Maybe I'm not reading you correctly.

If we were talking about him having been married before and she is still alive, in many places in the Bible Belt, yes it would.

The other stuff you mentioned is not a disqualifier when it comes to the deaconate or the pastorate, but marriage is. The other things he could have repented of and made right. He can't make right the admonishment to not be an adulterer if he's still being an adulterer.

So you're saying that this brother in Christ has to go, find the pagan wife from his pre-Christian days who wants nothing to do with him nor Christianity, marry her in order to become holy and without sin before God?

Just curious Zaac...are you on ministry staff at a church?
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member


If it's not against board rules, it should be against rules to post links to things that contradict what the word of God says. It might go against your sensibilities and your feelings, but at no point in Scripture is abuse presented as a justified reason for divorce.

They can separate or one of them move to the other side of the world. But it is not a SCRIPTURAL reason for divorce no matter how many articles say so.
 

Kevin

Active Member
Stop smelling yourself. Are you a follower of Jesus Christ? Your sins are forgiven.

Is the original spouse of the divorced woman still alive? Did she divorce him for the allowed Biblical reasons? If she did, she's free to remarry.

Again, stop smelling yourself so that you can build up to trying to make a point. I haven't said anything about anyone "not being allowed to be saved or never having been saved or losing salvation". So if you're gonna pull me into your little rant, pull me in for something I said.:rolleyes:man, I don't even have the will power to further address you and this foolishness over something I HAVE NOT said.

You are full of it if you think you are not questioning peoples salvation. You were following True Puritan around like a little ignorant puppy dog. You agreed with him, and he definitely was questioning peoples salvation. To the point he was going to be banned for it, If he was going to be you should be too, in my opinion. I know the only opinion that matters is yours.

What is with the "smelling yourself" what does that mean. Just because the garbage you are spewing stinks doesn't leave me stinking, you on the other hand, I hope I never have to get anywhere near you to find out, I have a weak stomach.

Surely he won't be banned from Heaven, but mainstream so-called Christians will be banned from Heaven. God demands holiness and perseverance, not earthly happiness Like marrying a woman who was put away from her husband or likewise .
#5True Puritan, Dec 29, 2015

You can't buy, fake, and charm your road to Heaven. Unrepentant adulterers, fornicators, liars, sodomites will not go to Heaven, no matter how they believe that Jesus is God, do good, but live in their sins and dare to justify them by perverting God's Words. 1 Cor 6:9-10 is not fables.
#144True Puritan, Thursday at 10:15 AM

Reads fine to me. If you've been reading what he's saying instead of trying to demonize him, you might read it fine also.
#145Zaac, Thursday at 10:17 AM

TruePuritan, don't attempt to explain things to folks who mock you. They know full well what a web pastor is just like they know what an open air evangelist is. Keep delivering the truth. It may not be palatable for some because it's now THEIR sin being called out. But deliver the truth in love.Thumbsup Some will still attempt to bite your head off though. post 28

Yep. And will demonize you and then attack you like a band of sharks because what you say steps on their toes. Post 138

Sure looks like you agreed with him 100%
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
I don't believe anyone in this thread is saying that becoming a Christian relinquishes one from obligations and legal contracts.

Not sure what this was for.



I don't know about your church, but in the church where I serve we believe and preach that coming to faith in Christ requires no special knowledge but simply to place one's faith in Christ. The result of that faith will compel those who are saved to live in accordance with their salvation which means chastity until biblical marriage (between one woman and one man) is in place and all sexual activity is to be practiced within that bond.

Absolutely.

So its okay for a Christian to commit adultery because they know they'll be forgiven?

Maybe I'm not reading you correctly.

No, you're not reading that correctly.

So you're saying that this brother in Christ has to go, find the pagan wife from his pre-Christian days who wants nothing to do with him nor Christianity, marry her in order to become holy and without sin before God?

He doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to. But if he didn't divorce her for a BIBLICALLY approved reason, he's still married to her. However you seem to be saying she's an unbeliever who may have chosen to leave. THAT is actually covered in Scripture.
 

Baptist in Richmond

Active Member
According to the Bible one who is having a sexual relationship with his second wife commits adultery every time they sleep together as long as the first wife is still alive. Whether they were married before Salvation or not. Just because a man finds Salvation after the divorce does not nullify the marriage contract to his first wife.
MB

Please provide the Biblical support for this.

An honest request, by the way.

Regards,
BiR
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
You are full of it if you think you are not questioning peoples salvation.

And you're full of it if you think I have. You haven't been on here much. But I can assure you that if Iwant to question someone's salvation, I don't have a aproblem typing that for public consumption and dealing with the accompanying consequences.Wink

You were following True Puritan around like a little ignorant puppy dog. You agreed with him, and he definitely was questioning peoples salvation. To the point he was going to be banned for it, If he was going to be you should be too, in my opinion. I know the only opinion that matters is yours.

You're beyond an ignorant puppy if you think for a minute that I have to ride anyone's coattails. So get more than your feet wet before you start coming at me sideways about something you're VERY OBVIOUSLY wrong about.

What is with the "smelling yourself" what does that mean.

You seem to know everything about me. Figure it out.
Just because the garbage you are spewing stinks doesn't leave me stinking

Your mouth is closer to your nose than I am. Let me suggest you start there if you're smelling something.

, you on the other hand, I hope I never have to get anywhere near you to find out, I have a weak stomach.

You sound like you may have some spine problems too.
<SNIP>
Sure looks like you agreed with him 100%

Maybe you need to get your eyes checked with your spine and stomach?Thumbsup
 

Kevin

Active Member
Your mouth is closer to your nose than I am. Let me suggest you start there if you're smelling something.


You sound like you may have some spine problems too.


Maybe you need to get your eyes checked with your spine and stomach?Thumbsup

InternetToughGuy.jpg
 

evenifigoalone

Well-Known Member
From the link annsni provided:
God not only hates divorce, but also the one whose garment is covered with violence (Mal. 2:16). A violent and abusive man has broken the marriage covenant by his sinful choices; he is the “divorcer,” and that marriage is not honoring to the Lord (1 Cor. 7:15). I know the topic of divorce is exegetically complicated and ecclesially controversial, but I am amazed at the responses I often get from pastors on this issue. The husband is abusive, and the wife pursues divorce. What do some churches do? Discipline or ignore the woman. They refuse to condone divorce even at the expense of her safety. Friends, this is not courageous pastoral ministry.
Mal. 2:16
For cthe man who does not love his wife but divorces her,10 says the Lord, the God of Israel, covers11 his garment with violence, says the Lord of hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and tdo not be faithless.”

1 Cor. 7:15
But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you2jto peace.

For myself, honestly at this point this thread is rather making me sick. This isn't about feelings, it's about God given reason and common sense, and it's about this flying in the face of the principles given in God's word (treatment of others being important enough to be the reasoning behind more than half of the commandments).
Again, an abusive spouse is showing the same lack of respect and love shown by a spouse who commits adultery--if the spouse is not going to change, being bound to him for life is just damned cruel, just as it would be to remain bound to an unrepentant adulterer. It was made clear that divorce was not recommended in all cases of abuse, only when considered necessary and important to the safety and well-being of the abused. Neither is divorce recommend in all cases of adultery--to my understanding, anyway.

To bring more viewpoints and arguments to the table I did a search and found these:
The trickier question is, is abuse an acceptable reason for separation? If staying together would mean the criminal abuse of the spouse or victim, then yes. Endangering the life of a child is against the law. Scripturally, we can turn to 1 Corinthians 8:9 (NASB). Christ's sacrifice gives us the liberty to stay or go, "but take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak." If staying would impel the abusive spouse to sin further, either physically, sexually, emotionally, or verbally, a separation for the purpose of initiating behavioral changes and eventual reconciliation should seriously be considered.
http://www.compellingtruth.org/abuse-divorce.html

http://www.restoredrelationships.org/news/2011/05/10/domestic-abuse-divorce/

(I realize articles like these are easy enough to find, and for as many with the views shown here there are plenty coming to the opposite conclusion.)

Lastly, can we please have a discussion where others are treated with grace and understanding? Surely understanding and grace can be utilized in a discussion about something as obviously God-hated as abuse, whether you agree with it being grounds for divorce or not. But this is all coming off as very patronizing and condescending--we're all adults, there is no need to talk down to anyone. Maybe it's not intended that way, but it's not helping. Frankly this is where 90% of my frustration here is coming from.
I'm going to leave this discussion for good now. I've already crossed my own line in terms of behavior and attitude, I need to stop before I say or do anything else I regret.
 
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Zaac

Well-Known Member
From the link annsni provided:

<SNIP>

1 Cor. 7:15
But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you2jto peace.

For myself, honestly at this point this thread is rather making me sick. This isn't about feelings, it's about God given reason and common sense, and it's about this flying in the face of the principles given in God's word (treatment of others being important enough to be the reasoning behind more than half of the commandments).

Yeah, it really is past ridiculous how some of you seem to think that any reason that you dream up to be bad enough is just cause for divorce.

It frankly sounds a lot like the world's reasoning when it comes to divorce. I don't know how many times I've heard folks say
"I fell out of love."
"We argue too much."
"We just married too young."

NONE of those nor abuse is BIBLICAL justification for divorce,

Again, an abusive spouse is showing the same lack of respect and love shown by a spouse who commits adultery--if the spouse is not going to change, being bound to him for life is just damned cruel, just as it would be to remain bound to an unrepentant adulterer. .

False teaching. You can try to equate the two all you want. God defines what adultery is. And neither you, ,the President, the Pope or any of his Cardinals can change that.

You can think it is as cruel as you like too. Homosexuals think its cruel of Christians to suggest that they go through their entire lives without having love or sex because they want it from the same sex.

Neither the abused spouse or the homosexual can change Scripture.

It was made clear that divorce was not recommended in all cases of abuse, only when considered necessary and important to the safety and well-being of the abused. Neither is divorce recommend in all cases of adultery--to my understanding, anyway

And I say again, that you or ANY Christian would put forth that any case of abuse that's strictly abuse is grounds for a divorce, is shameful.

It's 100% unBIBLICAL and embarrassing how much yall are sounding like the world.

Separate and move across country. Change your identity. But you DO NOT have God's permission to divorce because of spousal abuse.

God PLEASE protect the minds and sensibilities of anyone who ventures through these pages and reads these attempts to undermine the truth of YOUR word.

To bring more viewpoints and arguments to the table I did a search and found these:

http://www.compellingtruth.org/abuse-divorce.html

http://www.restoredrelationships.org/news/2011/05/10/domestic-abuse-divorce/

(I realize articles like these are easy enough to find, and for as many with the views shown here there are plenty coming to the opposite conclusion.)

Again, this is what the world does. Either we're gonna trust that an OMNISCIENT God knows best or we don't. Articles or anything else pushing people to do anything outside of what God commands is the equivalent of false teaching .

Lastly, can we please have a discussion where others are treated with grace and understanding? Surely understanding and grace can be utilized in a discussion about something as obviously God-hated as abuse, whether you agree with it being grounds for divorce or not. But this is all coming off as very patronizing and condescending--we're all adults, there is no need to talk down to anyone. Maybe it's not intended that way, but it's not helping.

Again, spoken just like the world. It's coming off as patronizing and condescending because the two of you seem to be expecting some sort of pat on the back for your deliberate attempts to undermine the truth of what God's word says.

I wasn't talking down to anyone. I was telling you all what God's word says and not backing off of that. People always tend to think you're talking down to them when you don't make room for untruth.

I've been quite polite. But there still is no room for either of you to try and justify something as a reason for divorce that GOD has not said is a reason.

Frankly this is where 90% of my frustration here is coming from.

Your frustration is coming from the fact that I'm not accepting something you want to justify. Like the homosexual and the atheist and the Big Bang Theory Evolutionists, you'll just have to be frustrated.

But if I see it, don't expect to be able to add anything to Scripture that God has not said. If He had intended to make spousal abuse or alcoholism or financial incompetence a reason to get divorced, HE would have. He didn't.

I'm going to leave this discussion for good now. I've already crossed my own line in terms of behavior and attitude, I need to stop before I say or do anything else I regret.

You still be well.
smiley-gets-a-big-hug.gif
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Please provide the Biblical support for this.

An honest request, by the way.

Regards,
BiR

Mar_10:2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.

Mar_10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.

Mar_10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

Mar_10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Luk_16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.


Hope this answers your question.
MB
 
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