Featured Do Christians Have an Inner Struggle with Sin or the Flesh?

Here's what I'm talking about.....

I asked you pointedly - are you thinking in ontological terms?

When you say there's not two natures, but there are two men....

What do you mean by "nature" ?
What do you mean by "man" ?

Are these ontological? Maybe two souls or two spirits? Or are you thinking they mean inclinations? Or two personalities? Two what ??

I ask this because it seems as though people use the word nature in different ways depending on whether they are talking about men or Christ. Men supposedly have two natures, described as sin nature and righteous nature. But concerning Christ the two natures are supposedly human and divine - whatever that means.

Then you add "men" in lieu of nature, and delineate between the two....

Spell it out to where there's no misunderstanding. I think I disagree, but I can't tell because of the mystical use of what I consider to be ontological language

 

Hi again Brother James,

I have not studied ontology. I am using scriptural terms. After one is born again there is added a "new man", but the child of God still has the "old man" within them as well. The "old man" our "flesh" is totally depraved and inherited from Adam. The "new man" is a result of the new birth and is the Holy Spirit in us. It is what is referred to as the "new creature". The "new man" from Christ received when one is born again does not sin for "whosoever is born of God sinneth not," 1 John 5:18, because they come from a sinless head (the Holy Spirit, Christ); but these people in their mortal relationship in Adam can do no otherwise but sin, "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin" (Romans 7:25) because we all emanate from a sinful head (our father Adam). There is the warfare not between two natures in one man , but between two separate and distinct characters of life; the one Spirit, the other flesh. One from our father Adam the other is the Spirit in us that is "born of God" at the new birth.

The principle of the two families (the NATURAL and THE SPIRITUAL) out of which grows the warfare, are made still more manifest by the contrast introduced in 1 Corinthians 15:45-50 between our earthly father Adam and our Spiritual father Christ . “And so it is written: The FIRST MAN ADAM was made a living soul; the LAST ADAM was made a quickening Spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterwards that which is spiritual. THE FIRST man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; And as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

 

I believe we exist as the outer man, growing unto the inter man, until the day of redemption, the redemption of the body. Scriptures 2 Cor 4:16-18, 5:1-5 1 Cor 15:45-52 Eph 4:13,15,22,24,30

 

I just saw your question sorry for the delay. To answer your question first we need to know what Paul means by the word flesh. He means that natural state of a man who does not have the Spirit of God. The natural man with its natural inclinations and desires. Ofcouse the flesh is corrupted because we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Natural man is selfish and his inclinations are selfish and evil because of sin.There is nothing good that dwells in him Paul illustrates that very well in Romans 7.

Natural man or man living in the flesh cannot please God because it is spiritually separated from the life of God because of sin. A man who lives or walked in the flesh is someone who governs his life with a selfish motive, its all about him and he lives a self-centered life and a sinful lifestyle, his heart is depraved and his nature is sinful.

I hope I answered your question. With all that said, I will repeat myself again that that teaching that we have two natures the old nature In Adam and the new nature in Christ living in us at the same time and governing our lives at the same time is not biblical, it has its origine in the ancient Greek philosophies of Plato, neoplatonism etc.

When flesh is crucified it means its dead with Christ on the Cross, how can then the old adamic nature in me libe in me? It can't because its dead not only on the Cross but in practical terms the spiritual man has crucified the flesh. How can a spiritual man in Christ have his old adamic nature living in him when that nature has been crucified and dead? It does not make any sense and in the light of NT teaching a Christian is a new man in Christ and if we abide in Christ and he in us we will bear much fruit and be christ like and our human nature will be sanctifies and transformed by the grace of God so that the image and likeness of God will be restored in us.

 

Hi again Brother,

Thanks for your reply. His Spirit in us is the "new creation" and this is added unto us upon becoming born again, but scripture does not support your contention that the flesh is changed or the old adamic man is no longer in one after the individual becomes born again. The adamic man the flesh remains. Jesus made this clear, "63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing" (John 6:63), how could the flesh profit nothing if the corrupt flesh ceases in the one quickened after they become born again? If the flesh were changed it would profit a great deal, wouldn't it? Jesus taught being born of the Spirit does not change the flesh because the one (the flesh) is human the other is spiritual (the Holy Ghost in us), "6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6). If we no longer have the adamic man after becoming born again, then what causes us to still sin?

 

I previously posted we do not have two natures in one vessel, so no need to repeat yourself, rather I have been posting all along we have two men in us, one born from our father Adam and the other born from our Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost. One is spiritual the other "earthy". We have what scripture calls the "inward man" or "new man" which is spirit that we receive when His Spirit enters us upon becoming born again, but we also have the "old man" also referred to as the "outward man" that we receive at birth and inherit from our physical father sinful Adam that is "earthy" or human. I never said we have two natures, nor do I contend this, thus please do not misrepresent my position in order to compare it to Greek philosophy in an attempt to disprove or discredit it.

 

I disagree that "flesh" is something intangible.

Flesh is our physical body. Paul said "with my mind I agree with the law that it is good....but sin in me, that is, my flesh..."

Then went on to ask "who shall save ne from this BODY of death?"

He said "though the outer man is perishing, the inner man is renewed day by day"

Though this body is wasting away, the spirit is strengthened continually.

It's the physical body which is corrupt, and must die, while the spirit has been regenerated and is sinless. But in the resurrection, our body will be raised glorious and imperishable - without sin.

This whole issue is one of ontology, not mysticism

 

I agree with Brother James on the above point.

 

Flesh is our natural body I didn't deny that but it's more than our body, otherwise why would Paul exhorts believers to sanctify their body because it is the temple of the Holy Spirit?

Life governed by the flesh its sinful because the inclinations of the flesh lead someone to sin not holiness.
The law of sin and death operates in the flesh and its members. The law that operates in the flesh lead someone to sin.

In the bible no where it says to crucify the body it says to crucify the flesh and that's a big difference. Otherwise the body will be evil, our body is mortal and as we know will be redeemed one day again when Jesus comes back.

 

I voted other!... The OP is to me a misleading question...The opening post says... Do Christians Have an Inner Struggle with Sin or the Flesh?... Did Paul?... This is not an a yes or no question... A Christian has trouble with both!... I agree with kyredneck and post something else that Paul said!... Brother Glen

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

It's not easy using my smartphone to quote text in the context of Scripture. We may have different point of views about the flesh meaning in Pauline theology. I understand it as equal to the fallen unregenerated man and life by the flesh I understand it as the life of a person sold under sin and Roman 7 is a great exposition of what I'm saying. Also a christian too can live in the flesh and not Spirit.

I don't believe Paul is a dualist and what I mean by that he was not teaching life in the flesh and life in the Spirit as living in us at the same time, if he taught that it would have been spiritual schizophrenia.

The spiritual man vs the carnal man or the natural man. Paul makes a distinction. Natural man - the fallen state of unregerate man, carnal man a christian who is still a babe in Christ when he should have been spiritual or mature. You can be either one of these categories in Paul's thinking and if a Christian makes compromises between the flesh and the Spirit like the Corinthian Christians did, he called them carnal.

John Owen wrote a book about the indwelling sin and as far as I remember the idea was that we won't ever be delivered from the indwelling sin all we can do is constantly mortify it. This concept of indwelling sin hunts us evengelicals today as if there won't be any cure to it in this life.

This Calvinistic perception of indwelling sin or you can use other terms similar to this one, is what has shaped the dualistic teaching of two natures, that has its roots in the gnostic teaching of physical body or matter as evil. In Calvinistic terms no cure for indwelling sin as long as we live in this physical body.

According to Paul we have deliverance from sin because we have been crucified with Christ and in practical terms to experience that deliverance of indwelling sin we have to crucify our flesh and put on the new man that is after the righteousness and holiness of God.

Paul contrast the flesh and the Spirit they are opposite to each other, as he contrast Adam with Christ. Martin Luther once said, "A Christian is simultaneously a sinner and a saint" this is not biblical, in the NT a true believer is called a saint, it was the custom of Paul to address them at the beginning of his letters as such. He is not called half saint and half sinner.

They were saints in their position before God and saints in their state or in the practical sense because the Holy Spirit was indwelling them and sanctifying them. Sinners saved by grace to be saints and Christ-like. They were partakers of the divine nature and in the process being transformed to be more and more like Christ. Earthen vessels holding the heavenly treasure.

The body of a Christian according to Paul is the temple of the Holy Spirit and should be holy, it's not evil but weak and frail because of the fall and the consequences of original sin. At the resurrection the mortal body will put on immortality.


Blessings

 

The “flesh” is the part of all human beings that makes them subject to temptation. Even Jesus, in His humanity, had His flesh to deal with (Rom. 1:3; Matt. 4:1). Moreover, all human beings, with the single exception of Jesus, have at one time or another yielded to temptation and thus have sinned. Jesus, in His love for us, came into the word to “save His people from their sins” (Matt. 1:21). He not only died in our place for our sins, but provided that, by being baptized into Him, we would be baptized into His death. “Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin” (Rom. 6:3-7).

Please observe, however, that although our old self was crucified with Him that our body of sin might be done away with, the flesh does not die. As long as our physical body remains alive, our flesh also remains alive. Therefore, Paul, in Romans 6, admonishes his readers to consider themselves “to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 6:7). We do this through faith. That is, through faith, we consider ourselves “to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.”

However, the flesh is still alive, and in order for us to convincingly consider it to be dead, we need the help of the Holy Spirit who reminds us, when we listen to Him, of what Christ Jesus has done for us. When the temptation to sin becomes exceedingly strong, the Holy Spirit supernaturally strengthens us and enables us to resist the temptation.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995 edition)

 

walkinspirit

There are only two men.....natural/Spiritual..romans 8:1-17

Owen was a Calvinist....your caricature about Gnosticism is mistaken....Calvinistic teaching is the antidote to this. There is only one man....the Spiritual man.

Paul speaks of it as a fact already true in the Christian....having put on ;
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=6709225934
http://www.apuritansmind.com/the-christian-walk/carnal-christian-by-albert-n-martin/

 

Rom. 7:14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23. but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. (NASB, 1995)

The man described in this passage is striving with every ounce of his being to keep the Old Testament Law but miserably failing to do so because he has been “sold into bondage to sin” (v. 14). The grace of God for deliverance from the power of sin and the ministry of the Holy Spirit are nowhere to be found. Is this a description of a Christian—or is it a description of a devout Jew who joyfully concurs with the law of God in the inner man, but finds his outer man waging war against the law of his mind and making him a prisoner of the law of sin which is in his members?

 

I've no idea why you would think this is pertaining to Jews only as there is zilch indication in the context that even remotely suggests it.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would. Gal 5

Every Christian carries with them in this temporal realm this dead crucified body of flesh that is contrary to the nature of the regenerate heart.

 

The man described in this passage is striving with every ounce of his being to keep the Old Testament Law but miserably failing to do so because he has been “sold into bondage to sin” (v. 14). The grace of God for deliverance from the power of sin and the ministry of the Holy Spirit are nowhere to be found. This is NOT a description of a Christian [Christians have not been “sold into bondage to sin” (Rom. 7:14); they have been “freed from sin” (Rom. 6:7, 18, 22)]—it is a description of a devout Jew who joyfully concurs with the Law of God in the inner man, but finds his outer man waging war against the law of his mind and making him a prisoner of the law of sin which is in his members (Rom. 7:23). Christians are not under the Law, and they do not strive keep it—only Jews do that, and least of all Paul who had been a devout Jew but who was reborn a devout Christian. Indeed, Paul wrote,

1 Cor. 6:12. All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

1 Cor. 10:23. All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. (NASB, 1995)

Galatians 5:17 is addressing an entirely different scenario with an entirely different outcome from that of Romans 7:14-25. Indeed, Galatians 5:17 is describing not a conflict between the inner and outer man in the life of Jew striving to keep the Law, but rather the conflict between the flesh and the Spirit in a Christian—and although it is not explicitly stated here, we know from Paul’s other writings that the Spirit—rather than the flesh—ALWAYS wins!