Do Christians Have an Inner Struggle with Sin or the Flesh?

[Craigbythesea]

Yes...when paul became saved he realized he had failed to be a law keeper while he was in the flesh, so he was enabled by God to follow after holiness without which no man will see the Lord.

Paul explicitly tells us the opposite!

Phil. 3:2. Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
3. for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
4. although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:
5. circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. (NASB, 1995)

Please notice these words in v. 6, “as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.” When Paul became saved, did not forget that he had kept the Law virtually perfectly—but he still was not without sin and he needed to be saved. He also knew that some, but not many, other Jews had an excellent testimony regarding their keeping the Law, but he was not about to let them slip through the cracks. Therefore he had written earlier in his Epistle to the Romans,

Rom. 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (NASB, 1995)

The doctrine of original sin! Even had such Jews kept the Law perfectly—they had sinned in Adam! Therefore, they were sinners in need of salvation by grace through faith.

 

[JamesL]

The doctrine of original sin!

is a farce - period

Even had such Jews kept the Law perfectly—they had sinned in Adam...

Romans 5 is not teaching guilt by association. Paul already dealt with personal guilt in Romans 1 thru 4 - because each has turned his own way

Read Romans 5:1-10
He's moved on to those who have been justified, those who have received the Spirit, those who exult in tribulation and look forward to a resurrected body

Then compare that to the second half of Romans 8, which is a continuation of the same. In a nutshell, chapters 6 & 7 are a long string of parenthetical thought

 

[SovereignGrace]

I have never met a devout Jew who did not passionately love God and the Scriptures and thus strive to keep the Law.

You have no biblical basis to make this claim, Monsieur. Those who passionately love God and His Christ have been born of God. See 1 John 4 for instance. You can not love God and deny the Messiah has came in the flesh. The devout Jew hates Christ, and consequently, God. They are still waiting on their 'messiah'.

 

[Craigbythesea]

"We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it,but it is sin living in me.For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is,in my sinful nature.(flesh here) For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it,but it is sin living in me that does it.So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind andmaking me a prisoner of the law of sinat work within me.What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then,I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law,but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."

This was Paul describing his life.

No, it was not! As I noted above, Paul, according to what he himself wrote to the Philippians, l had kept the Law blamelessly. Are we to believe that upon his salvation, Paul became a wretched man (Rom. 7:24) having been sold into bondage to sin (Rom. 7:14)?

The flesh is still fallen and has not been delivered from the clutches of sin, yet the spirit within the saved has. Until the flesh dies a physical death and is resurrected by God Himself, man is subject to, and does sin.

Our flesh will be with us until we die. However, Jesus had the very same flesh that we have, and although He was tempted, He did not sin. Furthermore, the Apostle Paul promised,

1 Cor. 10:13. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. (NASB, 1995)

Jesus did not tell us to try to sin less than 100 times a day; Jesus commanded us,

Matthew 5:48. Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (NRSV)

Jesus set the bar very high, and I do not believe that we should attempt to yank it down.

Your hermeneutics are off on this passage,Monsieur,in my opinion.

I have in my camp most of the Church Fathers, including all but one of those who lived in the same Hellenistic culture that Paul did as a Christian and thus understood the literary device (prosopopoeia) that Paul employed in Rom. 7:14-25); and including, among the Latin Church Fathers Hilary, Bishop of Poitiers (315-368), Ambrose, Bishop of Milan (340-397), and Augustine, Bishop of Hippo (354-430) throughout most of his Christian life. I also have in my camp the large majority of published scholars of Paul’s Epistle to the Romans who wrote in the most recent 45 years of the Church—not to mention the Holy Spirit who shared with me through the Scriptures (before my academic life) that the Apostle Paul was not advocating for Baal, but for our most precious Lord and savior Christ Jesus.

 

[Craigbythesea]

This is so categorically false, it is scary, mon frère. You have not one properly exegeted bible verse to support such a notion. The bible easily refutes your ideology here.

Let's delve into God's holy writ and see what He had men inspired by His Spirit write...

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband declares the Lord. “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”Jeremiah 31:31-34]

The Hebrew writer expressed the same thought in chapters 8 and 10, and Paul said he delighted in the Laws of God after the inward man in Romans 7.

There is nothing more joyous for a Christian to do than obey the Laws of God, though many times, we fall woefully short.

Rom. 7:4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. (NASB, 1995)

 

[SovereignGrace]

Antinomianism should NOT be tolerated on here.

 

[Craigbythesea]

You have no biblical basis to make this claim, Monsieur. Those who passionately love God and His Christ have been born of God. See 1 John 4 for instance. You can not love God and deny the Messiah has came in the flesh. The devout Jew hates Christ, and consequently, God. They are still waiting on their 'messiah'.

May God bless you with a close friend who is a devout Jew that you may know the mind of a devout Jew.

Please stop addressing me as “Monsieur.”

 

[SovereignGrace]

May God bless you with a close friend who is a devout Jew that you may know the mind of a devout Jew.

Agreed!! Maybe God can use me to point him/her to Christ. You know? The One devout Jews deny as their Messiah. You can not love God and deny/hate Christ. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one can come to the Father except by Him[John 14:6].

He is also the Door unto the sheep pen, too[John 10].

Please stop addressing me as “Monsieur.”

Sorry if that offended you. I only meant that in respect.

 

[Internet Theologian]

May God bless you with a close friend who is a devout Jew that you may know the mind of a devout Jew.

Please stop addressing me as “Monsieur.”

The mind which is lost is at enmity with God, devout Jew or otherwise:

9What then? Are we Jewsa any better off?b No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human beingc will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Bro. CBTS:

The devout Jew denies Christ came in the flesh as the Messiah. John addressed this here:

On Denying the Incarnation
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."[1 John 4:1-3]

This is descriptive of the devout Jews. They deny Jesus came in the flesh as their Messiah. They accuse Him of being a rabble rouser, not Messiah. They have a spirit of anti-Christ, and yet you claim they love God?

 

[SovereignGrace]

The mind which is lost is at enmity with God, devout Jew or otherwise:

9What then? Are we Jewsa any better off?b No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human beingc will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

He's saying they love God but hate His Son. Now, if someone hates your child enough to kill them, I guess they love their father?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Another thing...Jews will not eat pork. God cleansed it and told Peter anything He has cleansed, do not call it impure. And yet they love God?

If that is love, I would sure hate to see hatred.

 

[Internet Theologian]

He's saying the love God but hate His Son. Now, if someone hates your child enough to kill them, I guess they love their father?

Sounds like inclusivism mixed with sympathetic sentimentalism. Well, it sounds like that because that is what it is. None of those terms include genuine Christian conversion.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Sorry if that offended you. I only meant that in respect.

I accept your apology. May God abundantly bless you in your service to Him.

 

[Iconoclast]

Craigbythesea,

Paul explicitly tells us the opposite!

Not at all

Phil. 3:2. Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
3. for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
4. although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:
5. circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. (NASB, 1995)

he thought by external obedience that he was okay, until God saved him and he saw his internal corruption.He "thought he kept the law, but learned he did not...So here he is correcting others who thought by keeping the externals they would be okay.

Rom. 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (NASB, 1995)

The doctrine of original sin! Even had such Jews kept the Law perfectly—they had sinned in Adam! Therefore, they were sinners in need of salvation by grace through faith.

[/QUOTE]


Original sin, indeed...Anyone who denies original sin....is CLUELESS concerning any doctrine in scripture...mark it down and see.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Bro. CBTS:

The devout Jew denies Christ came in the flesh as the Messiah. John addressed this here:

On Denying the Incarnation
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."[1 John 4:1-3]

This is descriptive of the devout Jews. They deny Jesus came in the flesh as their Messiah. They accuse Him of being a rabble rouser, not Messiah. They have a spirit of anti-Christ, and yet you claim they love God?

None of the writers of the books of the Old Testament had any comprehension whatsoever that the Messiah would be the second person of the Trinity—they believed that the Messiah was going to be a fully human human being! Does that mean than none of the writers of the books of the Old Testament loved God? No, of course not!

When Jesus came into the world, He was not what the writers of the books of the Old Testament had portrayed Him to be—so of course most of the Jews did not accept Him as the Messiah. I know that this does not sound write to some of my readers because they have studied the Old Testament using translations of the Hebrew that were translated from a Christian rather than a Jewish perspective and that have a Messianic spin on it (that is, the translations interpret the Messianic prophesies from the viewpoint of their New Testament fulfillment). However, the Old Testament was not written by Christians; it was written by Jews for a Jewish audience and it should be translated as that Jewish audience would have understood it without the Messianic spin. The Revised Standard Version and the New Revised Standard Version are such translations. Read the “Messianic” portions of the Old Testament in these translations and you will get some idea why most of the first century Jews took Jesus to be a deceiver and a false prophet rather than the Son of God—as He truly is.

 

[SovereignGrace]

None of the writers of the books of the Old Testament had any comprehension whatsoever that the Messiah would be the second person of the Trinity—they believed that the Messiah was going to be a fully human human being! Does that mean than none of the writers of the books of the Old Testament loved God? No, of course not!

When Jesus came into the world, He was not what the writers of the books of the Old Testament had portrayed Him to be—so of course most of the Jews did not accept Him as the Messiah. I know that this does not sound write(sic) to some of my readers because they have studied the Old Testament using translations of the Hebrew that were translated from a Christian rather than a Jewish perspective and that have a Messianic spin on it (that is, the translations interpret the Messianic prophesies from the viewpoint of their New Testament fulfillment). However, the Old Testament was not written by Christians; it was written by Jews for a Jewish audience and it should be translated as that Jewish audience would have understood it without the Messianic spin. The Revised Standard Version and the New Revised Standard Version are such translations. Read the “Messianic” portions of the Old Testament in these translations and you will get some idea why most of the first century Jews took Jesus to be a deceiver and a false prophet rather than the Son of God—as He truly is.

Oh lawdy! The OT and NT was written by believers of Jesus, whether it was in His future appearance(OT writers looked to their Blessed Hope{Christ}) and believers after His appearance(NT writers). All were saved, and the saved Jew(even under the OT Law) was still a Christian.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Oh lawdy! The OT and NT was written by believers of Jesus, whether it was in His future appearance(OT writers looked to their Blessed Hope{Christ}) and believers after His appearance(NT writers). All were saved, and the saved Jew(even under the OT Law) was still a Christian.

Is this anything but imaginative fiction? The Bible certainly does not teach this, so from where did you get these ideas?

Rom. 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (NASB, 1995)

Please notice the words “to everyone.” Please quote from the Bible where it says that anyone heard, read, or otherwise received the gospel before Jesus preached it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Is this anything but imaginative fiction? The Bible certainly does not teach this, so from where did you get these ideas?

Rom. 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (NASB, 1995)

Please notice the words “to everyone.” Please quote from the Bible where it says that anyone heard, read, or otherwise received the gospel before Jesus preached it.

You are fracturing the bible. You are making the OT and NT into two separate books and not one harmonious book. Please stop. I now know why you were banned back in 2006. Your heretical views will not fly here.

 

[Craigbythesea]

You are fracturing the bible. You are making the OT and NT into two separate books and not one harmonious book. Please stop. I now know why you were banned back in 2006. Your heretical views will not fly here.

Here is the ‘heresy’ that I believe:

The Bible is composed of two distinct parts—the Old Testament (διαθήκη) and the New Testament (διαθήκη). The Old Testament (διαθήκη) concerns primarily the Covenant (διαθήκη) of Law; the New Testament (διαθήκη) concerns primarily the far better Covenant (διαθήκη) of Grace.

Heb. 8:6. But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. (NASB, 1995)