Do Christians Have an Inner Struggle with Sin or the Flesh?

[SovereignGrace]

And both books, the book of the Old Testament, and the book of the New Testament both center/focus on Christ. You are fracturing God's holy writ.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Here is the ‘heresy’ that I believe:

The Bible is composed of two distinct parts—the Old Testament (διαθήκη) and the New Testament (διαθήκη). The Old Testament (διαθήκη) concerns primarily the Covenant (διαθήκη) of Law; the New Testament (διαθήκη) concerns primarily the far better Covenant (διαθήκη) of Grace.

Heb. 8:6. But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. (NASB, 1995)

I understand what you are expressing, but you are patently false in your conclusion, in my opinion of course. You said that Christians never wrote the OT. In a sense, you are correct, considering believers were given that appellation while at Antioch. However, that was not an endearing nickname given to them, but was meant to slander their believing in God's Christ(Acts 11). They believed their Messiah was coming and was looking towards His appearance, and were just as much a Christian as we are today. They were believers in the coming Christ. Christian and believer are two interchangeable words to describe God's children. The OT and NT saints are all believers, are all children of the Most High God, and Christian.

 

[Iconoclast]

is a farce

Romans 5 is not teaching guilt by association. Paul already dealt with personal guilt in Romans 1 thru 4 - because each has turned his own way

Read Romans 5:1-10
He's moved on to those who have been justified, those who have received the Spirit, those who exult in tribulation and look forward to a resurrected body

Then compare that to the second half of Romans 8, which is a continuation of the same. In a nutshell, chapters 6 & 7 are a long string of parenthetical thought

A denial of federal headship.... is a denial of the heart of the gospel.

 

[JamesL]

A denial of federal headship.... is a denial of the heart of the gospel.

your false gospel, that is.

And you also deny the gospel by rejecting the bodily resurrection of the saints.

 

[kyredneck]

You said that Christians never wrote the OT. In a sense, you are correct

No, he's wrong. The writers of the OT were Christians:

10 Concerning which salvation the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them. 1 Pet 1

 

[kyredneck]

You are fracturing God's holy writ.

Bingo. Hyper-dispensationalism is what he's beginning to sound like.

 

[Iconoclast]

your false gospel, that is.

And you also deny the gospel by rejecting the bodily resurrection of the saints.

Thanks for the confirmation. The whole believing church is wrong, and only you have it right..sure....we see it now...
..

 

[SovereignGrace]

No, he's wrong. The writers of the OT were Christians:

10 Concerning which salvation the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them. 1 Pet 1

I hope you caught my caveat 'however'. The OT saints were never called Christians....that name was given them at Antioch...but just because that title was never given them, didn't mean they weren't christians. They, the OT saints, we're true believers, and true believers are christians.

 

[tyndale1946]

I hope you caught my caveat 'however'. The OT saints were never called Christians....that name was given them at Antioch...but just because that title was never given them, didn't mean they weren't christians. They, the OT saints, we're true believers, and true believers are christians.

Can we say that this applied before Antioch according to these verses in the Corinthian letter?... You make the call!... Sounds like a Christian to me!... Brother Glen

I Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

 

[walkinspirit]

There is nothing gnostic brother accept your misunderstanding and misapplication of Scripture. With the above there is absolutely no reason at all for you to not be without sin and live in a sinlessly perfect state.

We are not talking about the sinless perfection here but about the meaning of the flesh and is it possible according to Paul to have victory over flesh and sin? According to classic Calvinism all you can do is suppress the indwelling sin, you can't have victory. According to Paul a true christian who is in Christ has been set free from sin and not only that but because he has crucified the flesh with its passions and desires he is walking in the Spirit and pleasing God.

If we walk in the light his blood will cleanse us of all sin, yes of indwelling sin too, there is no sin that the blood of the Lamb can't cleanse according to my bible unless someone is an apostate and sinned against the Holy Spirit. Calvinists would say no its impossible for Jesus blood to cleanse us of all of our indwelling sin, that's where unaware gnostic influence creeps in in their way of thinking and even many godly men that have been Calvinsts and examples of holiness couldnt shake off this pattern of thinking that there is no cure for indwelling sin. Indweeling Christ overcomes imdweeling sin.

Second thing I want to add, its not just enough to believe in a present Savior from sin but Jesus and the Apostles call us to a life of self-denial, to pick up our cross and follow Jesus as our Master. That means to die to self, our old self is a hindrance and it must be crucified so that Christ can be the King of our heart and life. Thats the experience of Paul when he said not I but Christ lives in me.

That's the secret of victory over sin and the flesh. We will disagree about interpretation of flesh or indwelling sin but one thing we should agree on are Jesus terms of discipleship and to follow him as Lord and not just trust him as our Savior. Christ is not divided a true christian should receive him as Lord and Savior there is no compromise here.

As for the term carnal Christian, McAurthur denies the possibility that something like that exist in the context of what Paul meant in 1Corinthians 3, I wish this was true but Paul, the author of Hebrews, the Bible and the reality of Christian life agree that it is possible to backslide, walk in the flesh or to be still a babe in Christ and not spiritual but carnal.

I want to say that recognizing the reality that carnal Christians exist is not just a biblical truth but a spiritual discernment too, if all Christians were spiritual it would have been pointlesss for Jesus to warn Laodicean church to repent of her lukewarmness and this warning is to born again christians.

I have not been able to participate in the forum these days, blessings

 

[JamesL]

Thanks for the confirmation......

you're always looking for confirmation from men...lol

Put down your web links and confessions, get into the scriptures. If the Spirit of God were residing in you, He would confirm to you. But you've allowed men to turn you toward vain philosophy.

 

[Iconoclast]

We are not talking about the sinless perfection here but about the meaning of the flesh and is it possible according to Paul to have victory over flesh and sin? According to classic Calvinism all you can do is suppress the indwelling sin, you can't have victory. According to Paul a true christian who is in Christ has been set free from sin and not only that but because he has crucified the flesh with its passions and desires he is walking in the Spirit and pleasing God.

If we walk in the light his blood will cleanse us of all sin, yes of indwelling sin too, there is no sin that the blood of the Lamb can't cleanse according to my bible unless someone is an apostate and sinned against the Holy Spirit. Calvinists would say no its impossible for Jesus blood to cleanse us of all of our indwelling sin, that's where unaware gnostic influence creeps in in their way of thinking and even many godly men that have been Calvinsts and examples of holiness couldnt shake off this pattern of thinking that there is no cure for indwelling sin. Indweeling Christ overcomes imdweeling sin.

Second thing I want to add, its not just enough to believe in a present Savior from sin but Jesus and the Apostles call us to a life of self-denial, to pick up our cross and follow Jesus as our Master. That means to die to self, our old self is a hindrance and it must be crucified so that Christ can be the King of our heart and life. Thats the experience of Paul when he said not I but Christ lives in me.

That's the secret of victory over sin and the flesh. We will disagree about interpretation of flesh or indwelling sin but one thing we should agree on are Jesus terms of discipleship and to follow him as Lord and not just trust him as our Savior. Christ is not divided a true christian should receive him as Lord and Savior there is no compromise here.

As for the term carnal Christian, McAurthur denies the possibility that something like that exist in the context of what Paul meant in 1Corinthians 3, I wish this was true but Paul, the author of Hebrews, the Bible and the reality of Christian life agree that it is possible to backslide, walk in the flesh or to be still a babe in Christ and not spiritual but carnal.

I want to say that recognizing the reality that carnal Christians exist is not just a biblical truth but a spiritual discernment too, if all Christians were spiritual it would have been pointlesss for Jesus to warn Laodicean church to repent of her lukewarmness and this warning is to born again christians.

I have not been able to participate in the forum these days, blessings

The old man has been crucified with Christ....the first ten verses in Romans 6 are in the past tense.
There is no such thing as a carnal Christian.

 

[Iconoclast]

you're always looking for confirmation from men...lol

Put down your web links and confessions, get into the scriptures. If the Spirit of God were residing in you, He would confirm to you. But you've allowed men to turn you toward vain philosophy.

So.....as well as being all knowing you now know who has the Spirit in them....interesting......
If I want vain philosophy. ...I will read any of your posts. ..but if you do not mind, I will stick with the Godly teachers God has given to His church....

 

[Craigbythesea]

We are not talking about the sinless perfection here but about the meaning of the flesh and is it possible according to Paul to have victory over flesh and sin? According to classic Calvinism all you can do is suppress the indwelling sin, you can't have victory. According to Paul a true christian who is in Christ has been set free from sin and not only that but because he has crucified the flesh with its passions and desires he is walking in the Spirit and pleasing God.

If we walk in the light his blood will cleanse us of all sin, yes of indwelling sin too, there is no sin that the blood of the Lamb can't cleanse according to my bible unless someone is an apostate and sinned against the Holy Spirit. Calvinists would say no its impossible for Jesus blood to cleanse us of all of our indwelling sin, that's where unaware gnostic influence creeps in in their way of thinking and even many godly men that have been Calvinsts and examples of holiness couldnt shake off this pattern of thinking that there is no cure for indwelling sin. Indweeling Christ overcomes imdweeling sin.

Second thing I want to add, its not just enough to believe in a present Savior from sin but Jesus and the Apostles call us to a life of self-denial, to pick up our cross and follow Jesus as our Master. That means to die to self, our old self is a hindrance and it must be crucified so that Christ can be the King of our heart and life. Thats the experience of Paul when he said not I but Christ lives in me.

That's the secret of victory over sin and the flesh. We will disagree about interpretation of flesh or indwelling sin but one thing we should agree on are Jesus terms of discipleship and to follow him as Lord and not just trust him as our Savior. Christ is not divided a true christian should receive him as Lord and Savior there is no compromise here.

As for the term carnal Christian, McAurthur denies the possibility that something like that exist in the context of what Paul meant in 1Corinthians 3, I wish this was true but Paul, the author of Hebrews, the Bible and the reality of Christian life agree that it is possible to backslide, walk in the flesh or to be still a babe in Christ and not spiritual but carnal.

I want to say that recognizing the reality that carnal Christians exist is not just a biblical truth but a spiritual discernment too, if all Christians were spiritual it would have been pointlesss for Jesus to warn Laodicean church to repent of her lukewarmness and this warning is to born again christians.

I have not been able to participate in the forum these days, blessings

Dear Brother,

Thank you for this excellent post that is theologically accurate, written in the spirit of love, and exalts Christ to His rightful place.

 

[walkinspirit]

walkinspirit


There are only two men.....natural/Spiritual..romans 8:1-17



Owen was a Calvinist....your caricature about Gnosticism is mistaken....Calvinistic teaching is the antidote to this. There is only one man....the Spiritual man.


Paul speaks of it as a fact already true in the Christian....having put on ;
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=6709225934
http://www.apuritansmind.com/the-christian-walk/carnal-christian-by-albert-n-martin/

The goal of God for us is to be spiritual and become mature and Christ-like but at the same time we can't deny the sad reality of many Christians who don't live or walk in the Spirit. A believer who is not living in the Spirit is living in the flesh denying that is denying the sad reality that many are doing exactly that in our day.

The conclusion that there are only spiritual christians is not biblical, yes there are carnal Christians who need to repent from their carnal way of living and walk by the Spirit.

The Bible does not approve carnal Christianity, it reproves it and shows the way out of it thru repentance, faith and submission to Jesus who is Lord and Savior. In Revelation Jesus warns the Churches to repent, the Ephesians had fallen from the first love in Christ even though they were very orthodox and zealous for food works and the same message of repentance was for Laodicean church who were even in a worse spiritual condition.

What I'm trying to say is that God does not accept carnal Christianity as a normal christian life but only the Christianity that enthrones Christ as Lord and Savior, there is no middle ground either give your whole heart to Jesus or you don't, he demands all of it. No cheap grace here, grace is free but a true Christian will be transformed by the free grace of God and God will grant him repentance to escape from his carnal state.

 

[Iconoclast]

The goal of God for us is to be spiritual and become mature and Christ-like but at the same time we can't deny the sad reality of many Christians who don't live or walk in the Spirit. A believer who is not living in the Spirit is living in the flesh denying that is denying the sad reality that many are doing exactly that in our day.

The conclusion that there are only spiritual christians is not biblical, yes there are carnal Christians who need to repent from their carnal way of living and walk by the Spirit.

The bible does not approve carnal Christianity, it reproves it and shows the way our of it thru repentancey, faith and submission to Jesus who is Lord and Savior.

I understand what you were trying to say. I can sympathize with the thought you're trying to get out. That being said theologically what you're saying is incorrect Romans 8 makes it very clear there are only two men those in the Spirit those.in the flesh

 

[walkinspirit]

I understand what you were trying to say. I can sympathize with the thought you're trying to get out. That being said theologically what you're saying is incorrect Romans 8 makes it very clear there are only two men those in the Spirit those.in the flesh

I agree with you that according to Romans 8 there are two categories those who are in Christ are in the Spirit because they have the Spirit of Christ indwelling them and those who are in the flesh are in Adam and have the spirit of bondage.

This distinction is very clear and I'm aware of it. A lost sinner is in Adam and a saved Christian is in Christ. One is the child of the devil and the other the child of God, one has the spirit of bondage and is a slave to sin and the other is free in Jesus and has received the Spirit of adoption that cries Abba.

A true christian is the one described in Romans 8 and that's the one who is indeed elected by the Father and his salvation is secure because nothing will separate him from the love of God the Father that is shed in his heart by the Spirit.

But not all Christians are living in the Spirit as described in Romans 8 and in NT we have enough examples to prove that there were believers who were nor living in the Spirit, that doesnt mean they had lost their salvation but that if they were really children of God sooner or later they will come to repentance and their fellowship with the Father would be restored and there were even those Christians in Corinth who were disciplined by God and some of them had participated in the Lord's supper in an unworthy manner became sick and some even died because of that and I believe they went to heaven.

There are other instances in Scriptures that describe individual Christians who had sinned (excommunication in biblical sense is for those Christians who have fallen in sin and don't repent of it, its a measure of discipline with the hope that they would repent) and needed to repent and even local churches too who needed to repent of their sin, if they were living and walking in the Spirit, the Apostles and Jesus would have approved them of their spiritual state but instead they warned them to repent.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

The old man has been crucified with Christ....the first ten verses in Romans 6 are in the past tense.
There is no such thing as a carnal Christian.

To whom was Paul speaking when he wrote: I Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

 

[Iconoclast]

To whom was Paul speaking when he wrote: I Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Hello PB.

While Paul is writing to Christians at Corinth he is as we know correcting a list of problems.
That which he deals with here is the one sin of sectarianism.
In this one sin......he rebukes them by saying.....they are behaving as mere men, natural,unsaved men, not those who profess to have the Spirit of God.
He is not identifying a new class of professed believer....a person who is DOMINATED by the flesh......no.
There is no such person.
There are false brethren....yes.
There are carnal in the heart false professors, yes.
There are real Christians who fail to mortify sin as they should for a short time....yes....
God alone knows the heart.
There are many in Mt 7 who are told depart from me, I never at anytime knew you.

Some study on chapters 2 and 3 will show Paul used 3 different Greek words that the English translates as carnal......
One of the words is a simile.......in other words.....you are acting as the unsaved, you are acting AS mere men devoid of the Spirit.

 

[Iconoclast]

I agree with you that according to Romans 8 there are two categories those who are in Christ are in the Spirit because they have the Spirit of Christ indwelling them and those who are in the flesh are in Adam and have the spirit of bondage.

This distinction is very clear and I'm aware of it. A lost sinner is in Adam and a saved Christian is in Christ. One is the child of the devil and the other the child of God, one has the spirit of bondage and is a slave to sin and the other is free in Jesus and has received the Spirit of adoption that cries Abba.

A true christian is the one described in Romans 8 and that's the one who is indeed elected by the Father and his salvation is secure because nothing will separate him from the love of God the Father that is shed in his heart by the Spirit.

But not all Christians are living in the Spirit as described in Romans 8 and in NT we have enough examples to prove that there were believers who were nor living in the Spirit, that doesnt mean they had lost their salvation but that if they were really children of God sooner or later they will come to repentance and their fellowship with the Father would be restored and there were even those Christians in Corinth who were disciplined by God and some of them had participated in the Lord's supper in an unworthy manner became sick and some even died because of that and I believe they went to heaven.

There are other instances in Scriptures that describe individual Christians who had sinned (excommunication in biblical sense is for those Christians who have fallen in sin and don't repent of it, its a measure of discipline with the hope that they would repent) and needed to repent and even local churches too who needed to repent of their sin, if they were living and walking in the Spirit, the Apostles and Jesus would have approved them of their spiritual state but instead they warned them to repent.

Hello Brother

Not all who profess to know the Lord do!
We can agree that to see false brethren is discouraging.
We do not want to encourage anyone who is entangled in worldly living that they are okay for sure before God while they live for the devil day by day.
Many need to examine themselves