Featured Do Christians Have an Inner Struggle with Sin or the Flesh?

First, thank you for your civil demeanor; it is becoming more rare yet always refreshing.

Perhaps I can present my point of view in this manner. I believe it is possible, and sadly very common, for a believer to quench and/or grieve the Holy Spirit. When this happens, that Christian, in essence, renders the Holy Spirit inactive in their life. They are no longer walking in the Spirit and thus fulfilling the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16).

This Christian is acting, many times, just like his lost neighbor who has not the Holy Spirit residing in him. Granted, he is living dangerously, but he is certainly being dominated by his flesh and not the Spirit of God. I believe this is the description of a carnal (fleshly, worldly) Christian.

 

In Rom. 5:20, Paul wrote,

5:20. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

This statement gives rise to the logical but carnal question in the next chapter,

6:1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

In verse 2, Paul answers the question, and then throughout the rest of the chapter he builds upon his answer,

6: 2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7. for he who has died is freed from sin.
8. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9. knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13. and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16. Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17. But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18. and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
22. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This entire chapter was written for the benefit of the carnal Christians in the Church in Rome who were asking in their carnal minds, “Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?”

 

I voted other. Guess I've been watching Trump too much in the news.

I may have misunderstood the question. But I took it to mean: Is the struggle with sin for the Christian from within or from without?

There is no doubt the grief and sorrow is felt within. Or that we are affected inside by what goes on outside. Nor any doubt that our flesh is at war with our spirit. But the Apostle Paul dealt with this subject extensively in Romans. Being Jewish himself and a Pharisee of Pharisees this kind of theology puzzled them until Paul (at least) found Grace in such a way that knocked him off his... uh, donkey.

This is a big chunk of scripture but well worth the study to cover meticulously. It essentially states that sin for the Christian is now merely skin deep.

Romans 7:14–8:39 (AV)

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

That being said, we must not depend on or trust our flesh but must keep it under constant scrutiny and discipline. I would not obsess over it since we remain here (once saved) to do the works of the LORD i.e. getting others saved in whatever capacity we are individually called and equipped to do so.

Otherwise why not rapture us out upon our conversion? Think of the grief God would spare himself and us if that happened. But he wants us here to get others saved. And not waste this time with worldliness or monastic gymnastics trying to live sinless lives flagellating our bodies to keep them in line...

But at the same time, there are believers who do not even know that there is merit in at least trying to tame and disciple the flesh. Sadly, few even know there is a struggle between the spirit and the flesh...

We need more fire and brimstone sermons like in the old days...

People are genuinely shocked by how much trouble their flesh can get them in. Parents do not discipline their kids in the name of not inhibiting them or abusing them. Pulpits do not resound with the damnation of evil and temptation like they used to. And the existential message I'm okay you're okay, and Father Knows Best faith in humanity deprive humanity of the warning that we are all rotters potentially and actually to the very bone.

Isaiah 64:6 (AV)
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

There is no excuse for this or for affluenza but it exists and this is the cause (the deception about the flesh being okay). Ethan Couch and mother are but extreme examples of us all.

 

1 John 2:1 (AV)
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 1:8–10 (AV)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 1:5–7 (AV)
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Psalm 51 (AV)
1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not espise.
18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

Aside from some Old Covenant points (verses 11 and 19) this is the best model confession I found in the Bible. There may be others of great merit (Psalm 38 is a beautiful confession and praise to God).

 

only because you're one of the head honchos.

Otherwise, he would have been telling you that you're entrenched in error, unable to discern the scriptures, hinting that you're not a believer, and everything short of calling you vile names.

 

Pastor Bob has responded in a christian manner.
He has seen that we have some disagreement and he presents his case, without calling me names as you and another moderator have done in times past.
When someone conducts themselves in a correct manner they are responded to in kind.
You are entrentched in error,but that does not stop you from setting aside all the reformers and puritans,commentators, confessions,....everyone is wrong in your view except you...we should only read your posts......yeah, we have seen your proud boasting.
I have not seen one time where you have gotten any verse correct.....maybe you have, but I surely missed it.
Your posts are about you....not about Jesus or the scriptures from what I see. I recall when you explained that you were superior in understanding to me and my brothers here so what do you want me to do.....offer congratulations and give you a box of cookies?
You offer clown like posts with your pseudo intellectual posing which we have seen others do before, then you are offended when a response is given.....
2 Tim 2:24-26 is to be standard for all who interact biblically. ...which you seem not to do.
Posting like a clown gets a proverbs 26:5 response....just hoping I do not fall into 26:4.
Pastor Bob, walkinspirit ,agedman, and others do not have full agreement with me, that is fine as we can agree some,and still dis agree and yet move forward.
What you do moving forward is up to you.

 

Put him on ignore like I have. Saves you from damaging your eyes. Because you'll want to gouge them out with a fork after reading his postings.

 

I deleted what I posted because what I posted I gave you a piece of my mind... Then I realized that even though I did that you wouldn't listen anyway... Brother Glen

 

Both without doubt. We are tempted by the world, the flesh and the devil.
A large part of the Christian life is conflict with these three, which is why you get so many military metaphors in Paul's letters.
We are to treat our sins like so any Agags or Amalekites and strike them down mercilessly before the Lord (1 Samuel 15:33). But however diligent we are to destroy them, we shall never be finally free of them in this life (1 Samuel 30:17).

 

You were going to give me a piece of your mind...why?

For exposing the deceitfulness of a tare sown among the wheat?

 

"walkinspirit,

John M is correct.

It isThumbsup

,

In the OT the word backslide is used 17 times in 4 books....it always means....an apostate.
In the NT....the corresponding word is apostasy.

All Christians are Spiritual.....some are new born, some are children growing in grace with set backs,
but all having the indwelling Spirit, all arer under the Spirits dominion...not the flesh.

I want to say that no such being exists,and in fact this teaching leads to giving goats carnal security that the bible does not offer them. Most of these people are carnal in the heart.

Friend.... there is no "IF" here. All Christians ARE Spiritual....
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

Pastor_Bob,

Your welcome. There is no good reason that all communication on BB cannot be this way.Thumbsup

Sure it is. That is why when Paul instructs believers he tells them how to avoid doing this.The context ironically is Christian communication with one another.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

and the quenching;

14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

16 Rejoice evermore.

17 Pray without ceasing.

18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

19 Quench not the Spirit.

20 Despise not prophesyings.

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do

But I see no so called "carnal Christian"....

To grieve is a LOVE word. A person can grieve those they love. As God is without passions , this instruction is for us to understand we sholud not do such evil and sinful behavior.

Any professed Christian living as you describe should examine if he is in the faith at all.

 

Perhaps there will be an improvement on the board.

Things are looking up.

It is there.

1Co 3:1-3
(1) And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
(2) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
(3) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
--These "brethren" as Paul addressed them are believers in Christ, Christians.
Three times in three verses he calls them "carnal," hence Carnal Christians.
Honest exegesis leads one to that conclusion. No other conclusion is possible.

The verse is:
Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
--The Holy Spirit is a person, not a force like electricity or some other intangible thing.
He is a PERSON, and therefore can be grieved, lied to (Acts 5:1-5), resisted (Acts 7:51), quenched (1Thes.5:19), etc. One cannot lie to electricity. This verse is a great argument for those cults who do not believe in the personality of the Holy Spirit. Whatever your concept of God is, just as he can be lied to, he can be grieved. If he couldn't be the verse wouldn't be in the Bible.

It would be a foolish thing for Paul to write. It is like me handing a remote control to you for a TV that doesn't work, and asking you to turn it on. Why would I ask you to do something that I know doesn't work. Why would Paul command something of these believers unless God indeed can be grieved?

Perhaps. But any professed Christian is fully capable of living in sin. Those that deny this truth are fully capable of living a life of deception, for indeed they are being deceived.

Think of these examples.
Think of the upbringing of John the Baptist. His coming and ministry was prophesied of in Isaiah 40:3, and he knew it.
He was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb.
His birth was miraculous. Both father mother were "stricken in age," and Elizabeth had been barren all her life.
He was related by blood to Christ, Elizabeth being a cousin to Mary.
They (John and Christ) were born only six months apart.
He was a Nazarite preaching in the wilderness a message of repentance, the forerunner of Christ.
He had the privilege of baptizing Christ and witnessing the supernatural phenomena surrounding it, even hearing the voice of the Father from heaven, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased."
He pointed others to Christ, saying, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world."

And yet there came a time in the life of John the Baptist where he was so discouraged that he was willing to deny that Christ was the Messiah. How carnal, sinful, astounding is that? How could it be that a man with so many spiritual privileges could come to the place of denying Christ??

Luk 7:19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
--Was this the carnality of John? He wasn't spiritual at this point in his life.

Neither was David, a man after God's own heart, when he committed:
lust, adultery, and then murder.

Moses lost his temper and then murdered a man, even though he is called the meekest man in all the world.

Are the believers today better than the believers above: John the Baptist, David, Moses, etc.

 

DHK,


-

Christians.

But God did not write the scriptures in english.
God used 3 different words in the greek language...3 not one. each has a different meaning...so Hence...no CARNAL CHRISTIAN....no such thing.

Honest exegesis would reveal the three words used.

Your conclusion is error still so there is the correct conclusion still out there.

The Holy Spirit is God...God is perfect without passions.

 

Yes.

1. I have taken enough Greek to get by.
2. We have enough Greek resources on hand to help us.
3. God promised to preserve his word.
4. Your statement assumes that most of the population, perhaps 99% is unable to read or understand the Word of God, but God wrote the Word of God in a way that all men could understand. Thus your premise is a false assumption even though technically correct. IOW, all men have the ability to understand the Word of God without an intimate knowledge of Greek.

Words with similar meanings are called synonyms. They are often used interchangeably for literary purposes. For example, the word "carnal" comes from two Greek words.
It is translated from "sarkikos" nine times, and "sarx" twice. Sarx and phronema are also used together to produce the word "carnally minded."
It is interesting to note that both of the above words are also translated "fleshly," as is "sarkinos."

Thus you have "carnal Christians," Christians who live according to the flesh."

Then you should agree with me.

In truth it doesn't really matter what you think the difference is between the various nuances of the words involved. The major factor involved in the definition of any word is the context in which it is used. The context of the word "carnal" demands "carnal Christian," and that I have demonstrated to you beyond any doubt. One just cannot throw away the context and insist that they have a different and better way of interpreting the passage. They don't. The context gives the best definition and interpretation of the passage. And this is what you ignore.

Your perception of God is very weak here, as is also the definition of the attributes of God.
Let's start with something more basic. Love. The Bible tells us that God is love. Thus one cannot argue with this one. Is love a passion? Of course. It is an emotion. But you counter God has no passions (emotions). But love is more than that. It is a self-sacrificing giving of oneself for the betterment of others, such as Christ giving himself for us, paying the penalty of our sins.

The Bible says not to grieve the Holy Spirit.
As God is love, God can be grieved. As God is a person He can be grieved. One doesn't write these things off because God is God. The three persons of the Trinity are just that persons, and have "personhood."

MacArthur writes:

If he could not be grieved then what Paul wrote is superfluous. It is not needed. Why would he make such a command, and assign an attribute to God that isn't there. Your denial makes Paul and the Holy Spirit that inspired Paul a liar. Obviously the Holy Spirit can be grieved.

 

Another classic post where you display your inability to perceive Divine truth, but then attempt to lecture us on something you have no knowledge of at all.
Nevertheless is has some value to instruct us on how a professed teacher remains in error day after day.
You have a wrong take on the passage.
You are offered help.
You are offered sermons on the text,explaining the Greek words and why they were used.
You refuse correction and help.
You repeat your error in a display of ignorance.
You compound it by boasting carnally and saying the original language does not matter.
You repeat this poor conduct day after day.
We all see this....many request that you stop.
The only reason anyone reads your posts is to see how badly you have missed it this time.
It is like morbid people who slow down on the highway to gawk at a car accident looking for carnage......

[Edited by Administrator: Let's keep the personal attacks out of the discussion.]

 

"What we've got here is failure to communicate"... Cool Hand Luke 1967!... Brother Glen