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Featured Was sin in the world before the law was given?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Feb 20, 2016.

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  1. TomLaPalm

    TomLaPalm Member

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    Why do you choose after the 6th day?
     
    #21 TomLaPalm, Feb 21, 2016
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think because God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. If this includes Satan then his fall is after that day.
     
    #22 JonC, Feb 21, 2016
  3. TomLaPalm

    TomLaPalm Member

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    That good is not a moral description but pleasant or agreeable. Light was "good" Seas are "good". The plants are "good"

    It was "good" according to God's plan of redemption, a place for mankind.

    Satan was here a sinful Spiritual being, Sin entered the physical world through Adam..

    Satan was bound in darkness. Heaven has light from the throne. He was to be separated from God. This physical universe was in darkness when Satan was cast out , So Satan was here in Gen 1 1-3 before light. Man was later
     
    #23 TomLaPalm, Feb 21, 2016
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I'm not arguing for that position, but that's what I gathered from the reference. Oddly enough, I never wondered about when Satan fell.

    Sent from my TARDIS
     
    #24 JonC, Feb 21, 2016
  5. TomLaPalm

    TomLaPalm Member

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    from my study of the word "darkness" , I think it is ironic that the light bearer "Lucifer" to be bound in darkness .

    Since light is from the Throne of God in Heaven, there was no darkness for them to be sent. So this place had to be created to hold them until judgement. The physical world held spiritual beings without light , a prison. He was in heaven and then expelled, there we know he was in Eden. He had to fall before light was made.
     
    #25 TomLaPalm, Feb 21, 2016
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I always considered the name "Lucifer" to be positional (ie, an exhaled position) indicating a fall. But again, I have not studied the topic.

    Sent from my TARDIS
     
    #26 JonC, Feb 21, 2016
  7. TomLaPalm

    TomLaPalm Member

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    That is possible a "occupational position"
     
    #27 TomLaPalm, Feb 21, 2016
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I suggest you read that again.

    וירא אלהים את כל אשׁר עשׂה והנה טוב מאד ויהי ערב ויהי בקר יום השׁשׁי׃

    טוב when modified by מאד means "everything perfect in its kind." By the application of the term “good” to everything that God made, and the repetition of the word with the emphasis “very” at the close of the whole creation, the existence of anything evil in the creation of God is absolutely denied.
     
    #28 TCassidy, Feb 21, 2016
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  9. TomLaPalm

    TomLaPalm Member

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    #29 TomLaPalm, Feb 21, 2016
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    That is probably the best way to use the word. Christian tradition has given the Adversary the proper name Lucifer, but that is a misunderstanding of the Latin words for "bringing light", derived from the Latin lux "light" and ferre "to bring". In Latin this name originally referred to the morning star, Venus.

    Likewise, הֵילֵל is referring to the morning star. It derives its name from its striking brilliance, and is here called ben-shachar (son of the dawn) due to the fact that it rises before the sun.

    Lucifer, as a name given to the devil, is, of course, derived from this passage, which many interpret, without any warrant whatever, as relating to the apostasy and punishment of the angelic leaders. The term is a perfectly appropriate one for the king of Babel, due to the early date of the Babylonian culture, which reached back as far as the grey twilight of early times (the dawn of civilization).

    :)
     
    #30 TCassidy, Feb 21, 2016
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  11. TomLaPalm

    TomLaPalm Member

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    sorry wrong button

    yes , although I cant read Hebrew, "perfect in its kind "is not a moral description Are trees morally good or perfectly made? Are cattle? no etc, They were perfect in its kind to be cows or trees or whatever.

    God doesn't create evil . But He gave free will and sin came from free will.
    Satan sinned, and was separated from God . Adam although a spiritual being he was also a physical being and sin came unto the physical world and the curse. and separation from God.

    Did not God also create Heaven and sin occurred there? Was heaven or the creation there flawed ?This universe was not created to the ultimate destination of man. It is a prison before final judgement and a chance at redemption of sinners.

    do you rather go back to Eden or Heaven?
     
    #31 TomLaPalm, Feb 21, 2016
  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    You have to read what I actually wrote. "By the application of the term “good” to everything that God made, and the repetition of the word with the emphasis “very” at the close of the whole creation, the existence of anything evil in the creation of God is absolutely denied."
     
    #32 TCassidy, Feb 21, 2016
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  13. TomLaPalm

    TomLaPalm Member

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    I think it is an accurate depiction , He was of the first light of Heaven , thus morning star.

    The language difference cause the discrepancies, Satan , Dragon, Adversary from different languages

    As in the address to the king of Tyre, He was in heaven and Eden. not a normal man

    Jesus said he fell as lighting from heaven. surely a supernatural being but yet in God's total control.
     
    #33 TomLaPalm, Feb 21, 2016
  14. TomLaPalm

    TomLaPalm Member

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    I did read it , good is not morality . Did God say the trees were morally good? Light was good?
    It was good as to God;s purpose for a place to redeem sinners

    You write as though God was not prepared for sin to occur here. He put man in the same place as the top sinner and did not limit the interaction.

    Job was found perfect too , was he sinless,? no

    The physical universe was created to hold and possibly redeem sinners.
     
    #34 TomLaPalm, Feb 21, 2016
  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    What part of "the existence of anything evil in the creation of God is absolutely denied" wasn't clear?
     
    #35 TCassidy, Feb 21, 2016
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Please do not make false statements about me, what I believe, or what I post.
     
    #36 TCassidy, Feb 21, 2016
  17. TomLaPalm

    TomLaPalm Member

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    I agree , it wasn't evil but it wasn't not evil also. It was made according to God;s purpose not to be the pinnacle of mans hope.

    Spiritual beings sin not light not trees not grass , so how could they be created evil?
     
    #37 TomLaPalm, Feb 21, 2016
  18. TomLaPalm

    TomLaPalm Member

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    no offense intended,

    Do you find it strange that God would put Satan here to ruin His "perfect" creation and innocent man?
     
    #38 TomLaPalm, Feb 21, 2016
  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Please post a quote where I claimed light, trees, or grass were created evil.
     
    #39 TCassidy, Feb 21, 2016
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I do not find the actions of an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Sovereign God to be strange.
     
    #40 TCassidy, Feb 21, 2016
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