Notice the list of this he was not going to talk about again....... then ......this we will do if God permit.
"Talk about again" is re view
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Hebrews 6 Dilemma
- Thread starter Internet Theologian
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Notice the list of this he was not going to talk about again....... then ......this we will do if God permit.
"Talk about again" is re view
You are dodging the original point.
Where do you see the word finished in the text we were originally speaking of.
You know why you can't give a straight answer.
God bless.
Again, where is it in the text.
It's not there. You are adding this from your own theology.
Quote the Scripture and point it out.
God bless.
Address post 41 For most the point would be aapprent.
And it stands in direct contradiction to what you're saying in the other thread.
Yes, I am only going to accept the Word finished. When I get back to my computer I will ramble on about this in greater detail. You could save me the trouble by not dodging post 41.
God bless.
are you saying the word review is not in the text and that is unacceptable?
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; ...
see Changing the subject
Heb 6:3
And this will we do, if God permit.
What will they do?
not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
if God permits
This is where the conversation continues unto perfection
Heb 6:9
¶
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak
It's in neither text nor implied.
Now you compound your error by seeng perfection in 6:9.
You simply refuse to recognize what is there, and insert at will what you want to.
God bless.
well what is the word when you say "I am not going to discuss again now what we already discussed but will do later if possible" ? What is the word for that?
Again you imply something I never said.
Review Tom. Address post 41.
You are inconsistent in what you are saying.
Start here...
Now suddenly appeal to the original language?
Secondly, you import Christ's statement into Hebrews, and just as I said before, Hebrews does teach that but it does not use the word finished. So according to your previous statement we cañ go with English, that's good enough.
So which is it?
God bless.
It's not in the text. That's the point. It's something you impose into the text. And I already addressed that.
Give me Scripture that has review in English or Greek.
God bless.
are you serious,, I had to explain the verses to you for you to understand it and then you reject it because I did not quote the verses you misunderstood to begin with?
a definition requiring using the same word Circular mislogic
The finished work of Christ is better than the Law IS THE THEME OF THE BOOK OF HEBREWS.
The idea is in the text, Read it correctly, better yet ask the Holy Spirit to show you the meaning as you read it.
What grade are you in anyway?
a definition requiring using the same word Circular mislogic
The finished work of Christ is better than the Law IS THE THEME OF THE BOOK OF HEBREWS.
The idea is in the text, Read it correctly, better yet ask the Holy Spirit to show you the meaning as you read it.
What grade are you in anyway?
As I said I agree. Question where is he going? From the cross into the high priest work of Christ?
Message form my teaching through Hebrews on the beginning of Chapter 6,
I. We pick up with Chapter 6 verse 4.
A. “It is impossible for those who were once enlightened…”
1. This has been a much debated passage verse 4-9.
2. So believe it is saying people can lose their salvation.
3. Others the word “IF” makes this a hypothetical case.
4. Another is that the word “IF” is not in the original text and that these folks were never saved.
5. Others say this only applies to the Hebrews in which it was written.
6. There is yet one that just might make this whole passage clearer.
B. So let’s delve into some of these.
1. John Calvin says the Novation used this passage to deny pardon to those who had fallen.
2. They of course were in error Calvin concluded.
3. The writer of Hebrews was not saying those who fall away could not confess and be forgiven
4. That would contradict 1 John 1:9
C. We must also keep in mind several passages of scripture here about eternal security.
1. Romans 8:1
2. Romans 8:33
3. Romans 8:34-39
4. Romans 8:38 is the key
5. Is there anything you can mention that shall separate you from the Love of God?
6. Paul gave us a great list.
7. Then we see Jesus’ word John 10:27-28
8. No one that is not one person can pluck us out of Christ hand.
9. No one can pluck us out of the Fathers hand.
10. So is this passage speaking of a loss of Salvation,
11. I think not!
12. So that takes the first interpretation out of the equation, doesn’t it?
D. Now what about this not being true believers but just those who confess faith until things get rough and then they leave the faith or renounce their Faith.
1. 2 Peter 2:22
2. Speaks of those false professors
3. Those who were never truly saved
4. Who return to their sinful life
5. But look back a Chapter here in Hebrews to verse 11
6. These Hebrew’s were saved yet dull of hearing.
7. They had need of teachers even though they themselves should be teachers.
8. They needed milk not meat
9. The unbeliever needs salvation they don’t need milk
10. So the writer was not speaking to non-believers that is he was not writing to unbelievers but believers who had not grown.
E. This verse is not for just those Hebrew’s of the first century.
1. Understand when the book of Hebrews was written the temple in Jerusalem was still standing.
2. These Jewish believers could have easily returned to the sacrificial system.
3. Those who hold this view use verse 4-6 to prove their point.
4. But the writer didn’t stop with those verses.
F. Now those who key in on the word impossible in verse 4 see it stating that it is impossible to renew them.
1. They say the thought is that it is impossible to man
2. But nothing is impossible to God.
3. They use Matthew 19:24 to reinforce their argument.
4. Of course it is impossible for us to enter heaven on our own!
5. Jesus is the Savior and Faith in Him is the only means of Salvation.
6. But this interpretation just doesn’t make it as viable.
II. So what is a viable interpretation which fits within the entire context of the Epistle of Hebrews.
A. We see there are many interpretation
1. Almost all seem to have a viable theory
2. A viable interpretation
3. Yet they don’t match up fully to the context of Hebrews
4. Chapter 5 holds the keys to interpretation.
B. Dr. J. Vernon Magee bases his belief on a book “Bibliotheo Sacra” written by J.B. Rowell and his interpretation.
1. The first thing we see is that the writer is not discussing salvation.
2. Look back to the end of chapter 5.
3. The writer of Hebrews in verse 12 shows he is definitely writing to believers.
4. “Ye ought to be teachers”
5. They needed milk of the word
6. When they should have been taking in meat.
C. Making it clear that they were babes in Christ
1. Then he carried it over into Chapter 6
2. We need to leave the milk and seek after the meat
3. Leaving behind the teaching of the Doctrine of Christ
4. Leaving behind the laying on of hands,
5. And of the resurrection of the dead
6. And of eternal judgment
7. This we will do, if God permits
8. You see his theme is growing as believers.
D. Now we see those who were enlightened
1. Those who have tasted of the heavenly gift,
2. And were partakers of the Holy Ghost
3. Those who have been saved
4. Those who have received the gifts which the Holy Spirit gives to every believer
5. Those who have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them
6. It is impossible for these he says.
III. So what is impossible?
A. The whole point of this portion is speaking of growing into maturity which brings with it eternal rewards.
1. So what happens after salvation?
2. We are to grow in spiritual maturity
3. Many of these Hebrews had failed to grow
4. Many had fallen away from serving
5. Many had even considered going back to Judaism.
6. So could they be restored well the writer in Chapter 5 in verse 12 says yes.
7. Verse 13 they can take in meat
8. Strong doctrinal teaching belongs to the mature.
B. Verse 9 of chapter 6 the writer says they can grow into maturity.
1. Better things are expected of believers
2. The things that is the rewards and benefits which accompany salvation belong to those who are saved.
3. Though the writer thus spoke.
4. So he hasn’t been speaking of salvation in this section of the epistle.
5. So we cannot take verse 6 to be saying a believer can be lost and then saved again once they have been enlightened.
6. No it is not dealing with loss of salvation and not being saved over again.
C. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 shows us our works after salvation that is our reward.
1. Those who fail to grow
2. Fail to do good works
3. Will receive wood, hay and straw
4. While those who grow and do works of intrinsic value will receive gold. Silver and precious stones.
D. We see the writer of Hebrews in verses 7-8, it deals with the way fruit is produced.
1. Just as believers produce fruit
2. Good fruit comes when the earth drinks the rain
3. And as the plants are dressed the blessing of God is received.
4. Rewards of intrinsic value come.
5. But thorns and thistle is rejected
6. Those believers who never grow and never produce fruit
7. Or who produce little fruit and fail to grow
8. Produce fruit (thorns and thistle) which will be burned (wood, hay, straw).
E. So what of the renewing to repentance what is the author saying?
1. Well let’s look first at the fall away portion,
2. The Greek word parapito means to stumble of fall down.
3. Peter would be guilty of falling away in Luke 22:32
4. He denied Christ but was he able to confess and keep going in his faith
5. Or was he lost forever?
6. He was restored as we see at Pentecost.
7. John Mark, the writer of the Gospel failed, we see Acts 15:37-39.
8. He stumbled and fell and yet God was not through with him and he wrote the gospel.
9. Paul even wanting to use him later as we see 2 Timothy 4:11
10. He was restored and grew into a mature believer.
11. So people can fall away and be renewed
12. They can confess their sins and God forgives and cleanses.
F. So what does the writer mean by “it is impossible…to renew them again to repentance…”
1. We look back to verse 1
2. He is speaking to those about their repentance to dead works
3. Not salvation,
4. But repentance.
5. Showing evidence of repentance.
6. To do about face
G. So why would it be impossible to renew them again unto repentance
1. The author is speaking of the fruit believers produce we need to keep that in mind.
2. He is speaking to those who are spiritual babies
3. Who have not grown and have possibly refused to grow spiritually.
4. So what happens if they fall away?
H. Those who fall away have many things happen:
1. They lose their testimony
2. They haven’t lost their salvation though have they?
3. Confession of sin is just that confession, the Greek word homologo is used in 1 John 1:9 and means to acknowledge.
4. We name the wrong we have done the sin we have committed and God forgives it.
5. But Salvation is repentance, right, the Greek word is METONOIA meaning a change of mind.
6. In Salvation we turn from unbelief to belief in Christ, we have a change of mind
7. Turn from a life dominated by the sin nature and sinfulness
8. To a life of following Christ and having the indwelling Holy Spirit in us.
9. That only occurs one time at Salvation
10. It cannot be repeated, salvation is a once and for ever thing.
11. Those who have been saved, who have been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift and were indwelt by the Holy Spirt
12. Have no need of being saved that is no need of repentance (turning away from unbelief) turning from their lost state.
Conclusion: The writer of Hebrews makes it very clear how believers are to grow. That they are to become strong mature believers and when you have grown they are to utilize that knowledge to teach others who have not grown to maturity. When we fall away our fellowship is restored when we confess homologeo our sins, our salvation has remained intact and we need not be saved again not need to turn from unbelief to belief that is no need for repentance to salvation, that has already occurred.
I. We pick up with Chapter 6 verse 4.
A. “It is impossible for those who were once enlightened…”
1. This has been a much debated passage verse 4-9.
2. So believe it is saying people can lose their salvation.
3. Others the word “IF” makes this a hypothetical case.
4. Another is that the word “IF” is not in the original text and that these folks were never saved.
5. Others say this only applies to the Hebrews in which it was written.
6. There is yet one that just might make this whole passage clearer.
B. So let’s delve into some of these.
1. John Calvin says the Novation used this passage to deny pardon to those who had fallen.
2. They of course were in error Calvin concluded.
3. The writer of Hebrews was not saying those who fall away could not confess and be forgiven
4. That would contradict 1 John 1:9
C. We must also keep in mind several passages of scripture here about eternal security.
1. Romans 8:1
2. Romans 8:33
3. Romans 8:34-39
4. Romans 8:38 is the key
5. Is there anything you can mention that shall separate you from the Love of God?
6. Paul gave us a great list.
7. Then we see Jesus’ word John 10:27-28
8. No one that is not one person can pluck us out of Christ hand.
9. No one can pluck us out of the Fathers hand.
10. So is this passage speaking of a loss of Salvation,
11. I think not!
12. So that takes the first interpretation out of the equation, doesn’t it?
D. Now what about this not being true believers but just those who confess faith until things get rough and then they leave the faith or renounce their Faith.
1. 2 Peter 2:22
2. Speaks of those false professors
3. Those who were never truly saved
4. Who return to their sinful life
5. But look back a Chapter here in Hebrews to verse 11
6. These Hebrew’s were saved yet dull of hearing.
7. They had need of teachers even though they themselves should be teachers.
8. They needed milk not meat
9. The unbeliever needs salvation they don’t need milk
10. So the writer was not speaking to non-believers that is he was not writing to unbelievers but believers who had not grown.
E. This verse is not for just those Hebrew’s of the first century.
1. Understand when the book of Hebrews was written the temple in Jerusalem was still standing.
2. These Jewish believers could have easily returned to the sacrificial system.
3. Those who hold this view use verse 4-6 to prove their point.
4. But the writer didn’t stop with those verses.
F. Now those who key in on the word impossible in verse 4 see it stating that it is impossible to renew them.
1. They say the thought is that it is impossible to man
2. But nothing is impossible to God.
3. They use Matthew 19:24 to reinforce their argument.
4. Of course it is impossible for us to enter heaven on our own!
5. Jesus is the Savior and Faith in Him is the only means of Salvation.
6. But this interpretation just doesn’t make it as viable.
II. So what is a viable interpretation which fits within the entire context of the Epistle of Hebrews.
A. We see there are many interpretation
1. Almost all seem to have a viable theory
2. A viable interpretation
3. Yet they don’t match up fully to the context of Hebrews
4. Chapter 5 holds the keys to interpretation.
B. Dr. J. Vernon Magee bases his belief on a book “Bibliotheo Sacra” written by J.B. Rowell and his interpretation.
1. The first thing we see is that the writer is not discussing salvation.
2. Look back to the end of chapter 5.
3. The writer of Hebrews in verse 12 shows he is definitely writing to believers.
4. “Ye ought to be teachers”
5. They needed milk of the word
6. When they should have been taking in meat.
C. Making it clear that they were babes in Christ
1. Then he carried it over into Chapter 6
2. We need to leave the milk and seek after the meat
3. Leaving behind the teaching of the Doctrine of Christ
4. Leaving behind the laying on of hands,
5. And of the resurrection of the dead
6. And of eternal judgment
7. This we will do, if God permits
8. You see his theme is growing as believers.
D. Now we see those who were enlightened
1. Those who have tasted of the heavenly gift,
2. And were partakers of the Holy Ghost
3. Those who have been saved
4. Those who have received the gifts which the Holy Spirit gives to every believer
5. Those who have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them
6. It is impossible for these he says.
III. So what is impossible?
A. The whole point of this portion is speaking of growing into maturity which brings with it eternal rewards.
1. So what happens after salvation?
2. We are to grow in spiritual maturity
3. Many of these Hebrews had failed to grow
4. Many had fallen away from serving
5. Many had even considered going back to Judaism.
6. So could they be restored well the writer in Chapter 5 in verse 12 says yes.
7. Verse 13 they can take in meat
8. Strong doctrinal teaching belongs to the mature.
B. Verse 9 of chapter 6 the writer says they can grow into maturity.
1. Better things are expected of believers
2. The things that is the rewards and benefits which accompany salvation belong to those who are saved.
3. Though the writer thus spoke.
4. So he hasn’t been speaking of salvation in this section of the epistle.
5. So we cannot take verse 6 to be saying a believer can be lost and then saved again once they have been enlightened.
6. No it is not dealing with loss of salvation and not being saved over again.
C. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 shows us our works after salvation that is our reward.
1. Those who fail to grow
2. Fail to do good works
3. Will receive wood, hay and straw
4. While those who grow and do works of intrinsic value will receive gold. Silver and precious stones.
D. We see the writer of Hebrews in verses 7-8, it deals with the way fruit is produced.
1. Just as believers produce fruit
2. Good fruit comes when the earth drinks the rain
3. And as the plants are dressed the blessing of God is received.
4. Rewards of intrinsic value come.
5. But thorns and thistle is rejected
6. Those believers who never grow and never produce fruit
7. Or who produce little fruit and fail to grow
8. Produce fruit (thorns and thistle) which will be burned (wood, hay, straw).
E. So what of the renewing to repentance what is the author saying?
1. Well let’s look first at the fall away portion,
2. The Greek word parapito means to stumble of fall down.
3. Peter would be guilty of falling away in Luke 22:32
4. He denied Christ but was he able to confess and keep going in his faith
5. Or was he lost forever?
6. He was restored as we see at Pentecost.
7. John Mark, the writer of the Gospel failed, we see Acts 15:37-39.
8. He stumbled and fell and yet God was not through with him and he wrote the gospel.
9. Paul even wanting to use him later as we see 2 Timothy 4:11
10. He was restored and grew into a mature believer.
11. So people can fall away and be renewed
12. They can confess their sins and God forgives and cleanses.
F. So what does the writer mean by “it is impossible…to renew them again to repentance…”
1. We look back to verse 1
2. He is speaking to those about their repentance to dead works
3. Not salvation,
4. But repentance.
5. Showing evidence of repentance.
6. To do about face
G. So why would it be impossible to renew them again unto repentance
1. The author is speaking of the fruit believers produce we need to keep that in mind.
2. He is speaking to those who are spiritual babies
3. Who have not grown and have possibly refused to grow spiritually.
4. So what happens if they fall away?
H. Those who fall away have many things happen:
1. They lose their testimony
2. They haven’t lost their salvation though have they?
3. Confession of sin is just that confession, the Greek word homologo is used in 1 John 1:9 and means to acknowledge.
4. We name the wrong we have done the sin we have committed and God forgives it.
5. But Salvation is repentance, right, the Greek word is METONOIA meaning a change of mind.
6. In Salvation we turn from unbelief to belief in Christ, we have a change of mind
7. Turn from a life dominated by the sin nature and sinfulness
8. To a life of following Christ and having the indwelling Holy Spirit in us.
9. That only occurs one time at Salvation
10. It cannot be repeated, salvation is a once and for ever thing.
11. Those who have been saved, who have been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift and were indwelt by the Holy Spirt
12. Have no need of being saved that is no need of repentance (turning away from unbelief) turning from their lost state.
Conclusion: The writer of Hebrews makes it very clear how believers are to grow. That they are to become strong mature believers and when you have grown they are to utilize that knowledge to teach others who have not grown to maturity. When we fall away our fellowship is restored when we confess homologeo our sins, our salvation has remained intact and we need not be saved again not need to turn from unbelief to belief that is no need for repentance to salvation, that has already occurred.
And perdition always, unquestionably, undeniably, means eternal torment, right? It couldn't possibly refer to ruin and misery for the soul of man in this life, right?
I'm a 'slow-heller', not a 'no-heller'. The fact is I don't think about it, nor do I fear it, nor do I derive any feeling of vindication that some are going there because they haven't done exactly as I have done.
IMO, there's something very wrong with constantly breathing and fuming and threatening the saints with eternal torment. Such teaching brings our attention down to this plane and works the exact opposite of what we've been admonished to do:
1 If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth. Col 3
It is never acceptable to insert a word from English that is irrelevant or contrary to what the text actually states.
He doesn't change the subject, Tom...he continues in the same manner and expands it. Verses 1-3 is not a suggestion, not a review, but a command "...Do not lay again the foundational doctrines of the Oracles of God concerning the Doctrine of Christ."
How one might do that is to continue in the practice of those fundamental teachings. That is one of the biggest thrusts of the Writer, to convince his Hebrew brethren to embrace the New Covenant, which cannot allow for maintaining an understanding derived from the Hebrew Scriptures.
So no change of subject. We can bracket this rebuke/warning from Hebrews 5:10-6:12.
He makes it clear, "This is what you cannot/should not do, because this is the end of those who do."
The implication we also see in the text is "...this is what you are doing, so quit it!" lol
No, Tom, this is where again we see a contrast between the two groups specifically in view, which are those who receive Christ and those who maintain the practices of the Law.
God bless.
Sure, but is that what the context suggests?
And how is the concept of perdition ultimately reach it's culmination?
I would agree with that, because Christians are never in danger of eternal torment, that is a basic principle of New Testament teachings.
I would say that when people do this it is no different than other extremes we see. For example, "Greasy Grace" and an antinomian attitude are a result of addressing the views of those with works-based mentalities, who themselves have gone to the opposite extreme. Instead of acknowledging our responsibility to live holy because He is Holy, both groups end up in an extreme position which doesn't balance this issue in our lives.
But on a general note I see it as a responsibility for us to have an understanding and teach about Hell. We don't fret over ourselves going there, but, can we go to an extreme ourselves and lose our concern for the lost, who are going to end up there?
God bless.
This should not be taken to mean we relax our responsibility to warn the lost about eternal judgment. The above is within a Christian context and doesn't nullify direct and implied teachings concerning Hell, or the examples given us by Christ and the Apostles in regards to teaching others about Hell (both believers and unbelievers, because poor understanding of Hell on the part of the believer can be contrary to a balanced presentation of the Gospel as well).
Christ was more explicit in regards to Eternal Judgment than He was in regards to the disposition of the just in Heaven. That should tell us something.
God bless.
5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Cor 5
Ruin and misery in this life but still a child of grace.
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