Featured The Will of God in the Fall of Man

For the creation <(Genesis 2:1-3 / 1:27) was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; Romans 8:20 NKJV

 

In hope? What hope? Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:18-20

 

Why? From 1 Peter 1:20 was manifest in these last times for you

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8 KJV And redeem man who was sold under sin (Rom 7:14) by the law, that of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you may not eat.

 

"SovereignGrace,

SG ....just finished for the day.....long day...here is the link I was viewing earlier and i will expand on it a bit in answer to your post.

http://www.chapellibrary.org/files/9313/7643/3404/wog4.pdf
The Will of God
By A.W. Pink
IN TREATING of the will of God some theologians have differentiated between His DECRETIVE will and His PERMISSIVE will, insisting that there are certain things which God has positively fore-ordained,
but other things which He merely suffers to exist or happen. But such a distinction is really no distinction at
all, inasmuch as God only permits that which is according to His will. No such distinction would have been invented had these theologians discerned that God could have decreed the existence and activities of sin without Himself being the Author of sin. Personally, we much prefer to adopt the distinction made by theolder Calvinists between God's secret and revealed will, or, to state it in another way, His disposing and His perceptive will.

God's revealed will is made known in His Word, but His secret will is His own hidden counsels. God's
revealed will is the definer of our duty and standard of our responsibility. The primary and basic reason why
I should follow a certain course or do a certain thing is because it is God's will that I should. His will being
clearly defined for me in His Word. That I should not follow a certain course, that I must refrain from doing
certain things, is because they are contrary to God's revealed will.
The secret will of God is His eternal unchanging purpose concerning all things which He hath made, to
be brought about by certain means to their appointed ends: of this God expressly declares, “My counsel shall
stand, and I will do all My pleasure” (Isa.46:10). This is the absolute, efficacious will of God, always
effected, always fulfilled. The revealed will of God contains not His purpose and decree but our duty,
— not what He will do according to His eternal counsel, but what we should do if we would please Him, and this is expressed in the precepts and promises of His Word

It has been objected by Arminian theologians that the division of God's will into secret and revealed
is untenable, because it makes God to have two different wills, the one opposed to the other. But this is a mistake, due to their failure to see that the secret and revealed will of God respect entirely different objects.
If God should require and forbid the same thing, or if He should decree the same thing should and should not
exist, then would His secret and revealed will be contradictory and purposeless

SG...those who want to blame God for mans sin seek to dispute words and be cute with the scripture as if it were a poem in english class back in high school where you just make up whatever you think.

For me a careful study of all of God's revealed attributes shows the futility of mans carnal reasoning trying to deny He is on throne.

 

Another helpful study;
http://www.puritansermons.com/willard/willard1.htm

4. Therefore the will of God is without a cause, that is to say, any cause outside of God Himself. Nothing outside of God can determine His will because nothing is greater than God, or before Him, or beyond Him. Matt 11:25,26 "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure." Sometimes God may reveal to us His will for a particular thing and sometimes we can see that He created one thing for a purpose with regard to another. But if we ask what disposed God's will to create the universe? We must answer, because it was His will to do so.

5. This will makes the divine decree unalterable. He is an unchangeable God who sees that all things happen just as He determined, Job 23:13 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases." God's will cannot and will not be frustrated. If any act has been passed by the divine Legislature, so to speak, it stands ratified and will be enforced. Isa 43:13 "Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?"

6. Nevertheless this will of God does not lay any coercion on the creature, but only a certainty as to the outcome. Everything will happen as God's will has determined, but the freedom of people to choose their actions is not infringed. Indeed, the freedom of moral agents is ratified, because in His will he has determined that free agents will act freely. For example, in God's will it was impossible for the soldiers to break Christ's bones. But no coercion was laid upon them: they were free agents, who freely chose not to break them.

1. That there are no random events with respect to God. To us it is true that time and chance influence all things. Things come to pass in unseen ways, and by unknown means, but with respect to God it is not so. Nothing can happen either outside His knowledge or intention, for it is His decree that gives being to all events. The things that are, would never be if He had not intended them. For example, Joseph's going down to Egypt would not have happened if God had not foreordained it, Gen 45:5,7 "And now, do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you... But God sent me ahead of you to preserve for you a remnant on earth and to save your lives by a great deliverance."


2. That all things that come to pass are the product of infinite wisdom. God does all things, and he does them according to His plan. We are ready to find some flaw in God's providence and think we could mend many things. But remember, all things are ordered by the plan, not of men or angels, but of God, who does nothing rashly. The highest and most dreadful wheels are full of eyes (Ezek. 1:18). From the creature's point of view, some things might have been better, Matt. 26:24 "The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." But from the point of view of the great Purpose which swallows up everything else, that is to say, the Glory of God, all is best. If we do not see it this way, it is our own ignorance at work.


3. That no decrees of God can be unrighteous, but all are just and holy. His sacred and divine will which is the rule of the decree is also the rule of all things. He who wills things because they seem good in His sight, He who is not accountable to any man, He whose will is supreme and holy, cannot do wrong. It is therefore impudent boldness for us to find fault with Him.

 

pt2;

• Application 2. Let the doctrine of the decree TEACH US these practical lessons:

1. To see our nothingness without God. Apart from Him we are nothing. It was His decree that gave us our being. He counts us for nothing, Isa 40:15,17 "Surely the nations are like a drop in a bucket; they are regarded as dust on the scales; he weighs the islands as though they were fine dust... Before him all the nations are as nothing; they are regarded by him as worthless and less than nothing." Let us count ourselves likewise. As creatures we are the mere effects of His good pleasure. When we are lifted up in ourselves, let us look on the possible beings, which shall never be, and remember it is the decree that made all the difference between us and them. We came from nothing, and would be nothing still, except for this.


2. To adore the wisdom of God in all things that happen in this world, and that happen to us in particular. We are apt to complain, but remember: God's infinite plan ordered them. That satisfied Job, Job 23:14 "He carries out his decree against me, and many such plans he still has in store." The reason we do not see the wisdom of them is partly because being creatures we cannot fathom the wisdom of the Creator, and as sinful creatures we are blind and prejudiced. It is also partly because we forget the purpose they ultimately aim toward, and measure them by our own standards. It is also partly through our own pride, because we have such a high opinion of our own wisdom, which is foolishness indeed.


3. To sanctify God in all the changes of our lives. Let us for this reason acknowledge His hand in everything. We must not ascribe them to chance as if they just happened apart from the intention of the First Cause, which is a blasphemy against providence. We must not concentrate our thoughts too much on the instruments, either in good or evil events, forgetting their absolute dependence on the First Cause. Acknowledge His hand in the sending and disposing of all things. Let us recognize His sovereign prerogative to order all as He sees fit; that He is Lord and has the right to determine all things according to His pleasure. Therefore learn quietly to submit to the all-controlling hand of God. Let this silence us in all things: It is the Lord's will (Psalm 39:9).


4. To commend all the things in our lives to Him: not anxiously fearing what may come to pass, but believing all shall be as He has in wisdom appointed.

 

Another good one;
http://www.reformed.org/master/index.html?mainframe=/documents/fisher/q0007.html

Q. 28. Is the permissive decree a bare inactive permitting of evil?

A. No; it determines the event of the evil permitted, and overrules it to a good end, contrary to the intention both of the work and worker.

Q. 29. What scripture example is there of this?

A. God permits Joseph's brethren to sell him into Egypt, and Potiphar to throw him unjustly into prison, and yet overrules both these evils, and makes them means, contrary to the intention both of the work and workers, for executing the decree of his advancement to the greatest honour, Gen. 45:5-8; and 50:20 -- "Ye thought evil against me, (says Joseph to his brethren,) but God meant it unto good."

Q. 30. How can the decree of God be permissive and efficacious at the same time?

A. It is permissive, with respect to the sinfulness of the action as a moral evil; and efficacious, with respect to the matter of it as a natural act.

Q. 31. How do you prove that God cannot be the author of sin?

A. From the contrariety of it to his holy nature and law, and the indication he has manifested against it, in what Christ suffered on account of it; for he can never be the author of that of which he is the avenger.

Q. 32. What is the great end of all God's decrees?

A. His own glory, Prov. 16:4 -- "The Lord hath made all things for himself;" and particularly the glory of his mercy and justice, Rom. 9:22, 23, and, next to his own glory, the good of the elect, both here and hereafter, Rom. 8:28.

 

Before the foundation of the world ( the Kosmos) it was foreordained for the Christ, the Son of God, to be slain, that is, to shed his life's blood. Is that correct or incorrect?

What did God need to do, to bring that about? What needed to be done and what had to take place, by that which was done, to bring about that fore ordination?

Before the foundation of the world, just what was God concerned about? What brought about the fore ordination and the need to lay down the foundation of the world? System of order regulated by time.

Did, Pink, ever address those questions?

 

Sin did not originate with God.
Sin also did not originate with Adam.

Because of sin, the sin of Adam, death for the man made in the image of his creator, God, originated for man and all those born of woman after him, including the Son of God, the Christ. He had to learn and become obedient unto the death, that is give his life's blood even though he was the sinless Son.

Why? Who and what was God destroying? Not the man, he was redeeming him. I asked in another thread concerning Adam and the church. Before the foundation of the world, something needed to be destroyed and something would need to be redeemed. NO or YES?

 

Percho
Some of the answers you are looking for are here;
http://founders.org/fj46/a-doctrinal-study-the-decrees-of-god/

The decrees of God may be defined as that just, wise, and holy purpose or plan by which eternally, and within himself, he determines all things whatsoever that come to pass.

I. This purpose or plan is just, wise, and holy. Since it is formed by God it must have this character. His nature forbids that anything otherwise shall proceed from him. Though what he permits may be unrighteous, or foolish, or sinful, these characteristics belong to it because of others; while his will, purpose, or plan continues just, wise, and holy.

It is needful that this fact be always remembered.

1. Since, on account of the ignorance of man, there must be much in connection with this subject, which cannot be comprehended; because (1.) man’s finite knowledge cannot compass the nature, and mode, and reasons of the will, and action of the infinite God, (2.) because of the difficulty of reconciling the free agency and responsibility of man, with the pre-existent knowledge and purposes of God, and (3.) because of the perplexities which arise from the existence of sin in a world planned, created and governed by a holy, all-wise, and almighty God.

2. The same fact should also not be forgotten, because of the natural corruption of the human heart, which makes it (1.) revolt against the sovereignty of God, (2.) seek refuge from the condemnation justly due to sin, and (3.) endeavor to find excuses for continuance therein.

It is our duty, therefore, (1.) to seek to learn all the facts made known by reason and revelation, (2.) to accept them, (3.) to recognize them as the testimony of God, (4.) to admit that our knowledge is still imperfect, (5.) to believe that further information will still further remove the difficulties, (6.) to refuse on account of the difficulties to reject what God has actually taught, and (7.) amid all, to believe that whatever that teaching is, it must accord with justice, wisdom and holy perfection, because it is God of whom these things are affirmed.

II. These decrees are properly defined to be God’s purpose or plan.

The term “decree” is liable to some misapprehension and objection, because it conveys the idea of an edict, or of some compulsory determination. “Purpose” has been suggested as a better word. “Plan” will sometimes be still more suitable. The mere use of these words will remove from many some difficulties and prejudices which make them unwilling to accept this doctrine. They perceive that, in the creation, preservation, and government of the world, God must have had a plan, and that that plan must have been just, wise and holy, tending both to his own glory and the happiness of his creatures. They recognize that a man who has no purpose, nor aim, especially in important matters, and who cannot, or does not, devise the means by which to carry out his purpose, is without wisdom and capacity, and unworthy of his nature. Consequently, they readily believe and admit that the more comprehensive, and, at the same time, the more definite is the plan of God, the more worthy is it of infinite wisdom. Indeed they are compelled to the conclusion that God cannot be what he is, without forming such a purpose or plan.
stay tuned for part2;

 

And with this post, I bid you adieu. I thought you wanted a meaningful discussion, but should have known better. Adieu mon ami.

 

pt2;
III. Any such plan or purpose of God must have been formed eternally, and within himself.

1. It must have been eternally purposed, because God’s only mode of existence, as has been heretofore proved, is eternal, and therefore his thoughts, and purpose, and plan must be eternal. The fact also that his knowledge is infinite, and cannot be increased, forbids the forming of plans in time, which, as they become known to him, would add to that knowledge. It is also to be remembered that the plan must precede its execution, but as time began with that execution, the plan must not have been formed in time, and must be eternal.

2. In like manner, also, was it formed within himself. He needed not to go without himself, either for the impulse which led to it, or the knowledge in which it was conceived. He had all knowledge, both of the actual and the possible, all wisdom as to the best end and means, all power to execute what he devised in the use, or without the use of appropriate secondary means, and free will to select, of all possible plans and means, whatever he himself should please, and the impulse which moved him existed alone in that knowledge and will.

IV. By this plan or purpose God determined all things which it included.

This is manifestly true, even if all things whatsoever were not thus embraced.

To say the least, all the parts of it, as well as the whole, were known to him. But this knowledge, apart from any decree, determines, marks out, and fixes the nature, limits, time, sequence and relation to each other of the whole, and of all the parts. Things which are known by God as future, must certainly be future. A determination, or decree to bring them to pass, and even their actual existence, does not make them more certain.

But whence is God’s knowledge of the futurity of any events, except from the knowledge of his purpose, to cause or permit them to come to pass? The knowledge of the futurity of any event, over which any one has absolute control, is the result of his purpose, not its cause. And, as God has such absolute control over all things, his knowledge that they will be, must proceed from his purpose that they shall be. It cannot be from mere perception of their nature, for he gives that nature, and in determining to give it, determines what it shall be, and thus determines the effects which that nature will cause. Nor is it from mere knowledge of the mutual relations which will be sustained by outward events or beings, for it is he that establishes these relations for the accomplishment of his own purposes. To say that this nature and these relations are from God, and are not from his purpose, is in the highest degree fatalistic, for it would involve that they originate in some necessity of the nature of God, because of which he must give them existence without so willing, and even against his will. In this way alone could God be said to know, and yet not to purpose them. His knowledge would arise from knowledge of his nature, and of what that nature compels him to do, and not from knowledge of his purpose and of his will involved in that purpose. This, and this alone, would make equally certain and known what will come to pass, without basing that knowledge upon his purpose; but it would not only be destructive of his free agency and will, but, from the nature of necessity, would make the outward events eternal and prevent the existence of time, and the relation to it of all things whatsoever.

V. This plan, or purpose, includes all things whatsoever that come to pass; not some things, but all things; not all things in general, but each thing in particular.

So interwoven are all these things, that the lack of purpose, as to any one, would involve that same lack as to multitudes of others, indeed as to every other connected in the slightest degree with the one not purposed.

This is evidently true as to all subsequent events; but it is equally so as to those that are antecedent, for these thus connected antecedent events have been established with efficient causative power, relative to all their effects. God knows the existence of this power; he has in fact ordained and bestowed it. He knows also what will be its effects. With this knowledge, God must, therefore, either allow them to act, because he purposes that the result shall follow, or he must hinder, or restrain, or accelerate their action because he would change the effect. In each case he purposes, in the one to effect, in the other to permit, and his purpose thus extends to all things. Any limitation of his purpose involves limitation of his knowledge, and this cannot be true of the omniscient God.

To such an extent is the force of this realized, that it is admitted by all, that, in the mechanical universe, and even in the control of the lower animals, this is true. But the free agency of man, and of other rational and moral agents, is supposed to prevent God’s purposing, or willing, all things with reference to them. It is said that such purposing would take away that free agency, and consequent responsibility.

The Scriptures recognize both the sovereignty of God, and the free agency, and accountability of man. Consciousness assures us of the latter. The nature of God, as has just been shown, proves the former. The Bible makes no attempt to reconcile the two. Paul even declines to discuss the subject, saying, “Nay but, oh man, who art thou that repliest against God?” Rom. 9:20. The two facts are plainly revealed. They cannot be contradictory, they must be reconcilable. That we cannot point out the harmony between them is a proof, only of our ignorance, and limited capacity, and not that both are not true. It is certain, however, that, whatever may be the influences which God exercises, or permits, to secure the fulfillment of his purposes, he always acts in accordance with the nature, and especially with the laws of mind he has bestowed upon man. It is equally true, that his action is in full accord with that justice, and benevolence, which are such essential attributes of God himself.

The Scriptural authority for the doctrine of decrees will appear from the following statements and references, gathered with slight modifications from Hodge’s Outlines, pp., 205-213:

1. God’s decrees are eternal. Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:4; 3:11; 1 Pet. 1:20; 2 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Cor. 2:7.

2. They are immutable. Ps. 33:11; Isa. 46:9.

3. They comprehend all events.

(1.) The Scriptures assert this of the whole system in general embraced in the divine decrees. Dan. 4:34, 35; Acts 17:26; Eph. 1:11.

(2.) They affirm the same of fortuitous events. Prov. 16:33; Matt. 10:29, 30.

(3.) Also of the free actions of men. Eph. 2:10, 11; Phil. 2:13.

(4.) Even the wicked actions of men. Acts 2:23; 4:27, 28; 13:29; 1 Pet. 2:8; Jude 4; Rev. 17:17. As to the history of Joseph, compare Gen. 37:28, with Gen. 45:7, 8, and Gen. 50:20. See also Ps. 17:13, 14; Isa. 10:5, 15.

4. The decrees of God are not conditional. Ps. 33:11; Prov. 19:21; Isa. 14:24, 27 ; 46:10; Rom. 9:11.

5. They are sovereign. Isa. 40:13, 14; Dan. 4:35; Matt. 11:25, 26; Rom. 9:11, 15-18; Eph. 1:5, 11.

6. They include the means. Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:2.

7. They determine the free actions of men. Acts 4:27, 28 ; Eph. 2:10.

8. God himself works in his people that faith and obedience which are called the conditions of salvation. Eph. 2:8; Phil. 2:13; 2 Tim. 2:25.

9. The decree renders the event certain. Matt. 16:21; Luke 18:31-33; 24:46; Acts 2:23; 13:29; 1 Cor. 11:19.

10. While God has decreed the free acts of men, the actors have been none the less responsible. Gen. 50:20; Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:27, 28.

 

SG
Looks like this poster did not want an answer after all. Most who want to blame God for mans sin are not really submitted to Jesus as Lord as he has now confessed his rebellious heart.CautiousCautiousCautious

 

SG

I do not give a loophole for protestors to argue based on trying to catch you or I in our words. I do not respect that as valid interaction........I sensed it right away with a supposed "new person" jumping in to the deep end of the pool from his first post,lol
If you read through the thread, he sought to confuse the concept of ordained, with the idea of God's will.....
Anything that happens was ordained to happen or there would be no God. God has one revealed will and has made it known to the Church in His word;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

 

http://www.truecovenanter.com/sermons/boston_decree.html

 

Nothing has caught Him off guard. Why? He has decreed all that comes to pass.