If Adam Hadn't Sinned...

[Internet Theologian]

What if Adam were still alive today, and had not sinned:

- Would all creation be free from ever falling because he 'passed the test' in the Garden?

- Would he still have the capacity to sin at any given time, up until even now?

- Would those whom he fathered, and all who come from him have the capacity and susceptibility to sin?

- Would all creation stand in jeopardy, even until this point in history, if they did sin, with 'a fall' ensuing?

 

[beameup]

The Devil and his wicked angels would still be running loose. As a matter of fact, the Devil's angels would have polluted the entire human genome, and almost did succeed prior to the Flood (Gen 6). So, either way, the human race was doomed.

 

[SovereignGrace]

What if Adam were still alive today, and had not sinned:

- Would all creation be free from ever falling because he 'passed the test' in the Garden?

- Would he still have the capacity to sin at any given time, up until even now?

- Would those whom he fathered, and all who come from him have the capacity and susceptibility to sin?

- Would all creation stand in jeopardy, even until this point in history, if they did sin, with 'a fall' ensuing?

I don't believe we'd be here. Shoot, they did not even realize they were naked until after the fall. Also, "Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."[James 1:15] There was no desire until Eve desired the tree of knowledge of good and evil after being beguiled by the serpent. It was in Genesis 1 that God told them to "Be fruitful and increase in number", and I think that was post-fall, as Genesis 1 seems to write an overview of the first three chapters, while chapters two and three go into greater detail what Moses wrote in chapter one.

 

[Internet Theologian]

I don't believe we'd be here. Shoot, they did not even realize they were naked until after the fall. Also, "Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."[James 1:15] There was no desire until Eve desired the tree of knowledge of good and evil after being beguiled by the serpent. It was in Genesis 1 that God told them to "Be fruitful and increase in number", and I think that was post-fall, as Genesis 1 seems to write an overview of the first three chapters, while chapters two and three go into greater detail what Moses wrote in chapter one.

I think about it this way, he represented all of mankind, in him all are dead, and are corrupt and sinful in nature from birth.

Many do not believe this biblical truth and cast out original sin because they believe it to be catholic, and not because they've rightly handled the Word, 2 Timothy 2:15, and have seen this clear truth represented in Scripture, note 1 Corinthians 15:22.

If it happened the other way(s) around as suggested in the OP, the notions that we become responsible, guilty and condemned for sin only after we sin would be supportable to some extent, yet God didn't decree any of those absurdities. The fact that Adam, via God, represented all mankind, all are sinful, guilty, responsible due to his fall. Any other scenario would be anarchical chaotic nonsense. God created order even in this decreed plan of His.

 

[Internet Theologian]

The Devil and his wicked angels would still be running loose. As a matter of fact, the Devil's angels would have polluted the entire human genome, and almost did succeed prior to the Flood (Gen 6). So, either way, the human race was doomed.

I think you got a little ahead of yourself brother. You're way into the fall and are addressing things post fall.

 

[beameup]

Adam would have been alive about 500 years before the Genesis 6 "Sons of God" cohabited/copulated with the "daughters of Adam" and lived about another 500 years, witnessing all the destruction that they unleashed prior to the Great Flood, where only 8 souls were saved. However, there are some who do not believe in a literal "Satan" and see the "snake" as just a "snake" (Jews for example).

 

[SovereignGrace]

I think about it this way, he represented all of mankind, in him all are dead, and are corrupt and sinful in nature from birth.

Many do not believe this biblical truth and cast out original sin because they believe it to be catholic, and not because they've rightly handled the Word, 2 Timothy 2:15, and have seen this clear truth represented in Scripture, note 1 Corinthians 15:22.

If it happened the other way(s) around as suggested in the OP, the notions that we become responsible, guilty and condemned for sin only after we sin would be supportable to some extent, yet God didn't decree any of those absurdities. The fact that Adam, via God, represented all mankind, all are sinful, guilty, responsible due to his fall. Any other scenario would be anarchical chaotic nonsense. God created order even in this decreed plan of His.

Oh, I agree with you in regards to the Federal Headship of Adam over all of his posterity. It was just that I truly believe...per the bible...that Adam and Eve would not have conceived children in their upright state. So, no fall, no posterity. No posterity, no Christ. The fall was necessary to bring Christ into the world, so that they would worship Him for saving them.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The Devil and his wicked angels would still be running loose. As a matter of fact, the Devil's angels would have polluted the entire human genome, and almost did succeed prior to the Flood (Gen 6). So, either way, the human race was doomed.

How could they have done this? Adam and Eve would not have procreated in the Garden whilst being upright in their walk with God.

 

[TCassidy]

- Would all creation be free from ever falling because he 'passed the test' in the Garden?

Had Eve not been deceived and eaten of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but rather had eaten of all the other trees, eventually she and Adam would have gotten around to eating of the Tree of Life and thus be confirmed in holiness forever.

- Would he still have the capacity to sin at any given time, up until even now?

No. Once they had eaten of the Tree of Life they would have been confirmed in holiness forever.

- Would those whom he fathered, and all who come from him have the capacity and susceptibility to sin?

No, we would have been born with the same nature as our father, same as now, except our father Adam would have had only a holy nature to pass on to his progeny. No sin nature.

- Would all creation stand in jeopardy, even until this point in history, if they did sin, with 'a fall' ensuing?

Nope. After eating of the Tree of Life it would be Paradise on Earth forever.

 

[TCassidy]

Adam and Eve would not have procreated in the Garden whilst being upright in their walk with God.

Why not? It seems as if you are suggesting that procreation is a sin.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Oh, I agree with you in regards to the Federal Headship of Adam over all of his posterity. It was just that I truly believe...per the bible...that Adam and Eve would not have conceived children in their upright state. So, no fall, no posterity. No posterity, no Christ. The fall was necessary to bring Christ into the world, so that they would worship Him for saving them.

Right, FTR I am aware that you are in agreement there with the former of your statement.

I am not following on the latter though. I don't think procreation to have been forbidden and sinful. God did command them to be fruitful and multiply, Genesis 1:28. It appears he, Adam didn't 'know' his wife until after the fall though, Genesis 4:1.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Why not? It seems as if you are suggesting that procreation is a sin.

No. But they did not even realize they were nude. Maybe I am wrong here. But I see them as adults who acted like kids(toddlers) who ran around the house naked not realizing they were naked. Help me if I am wrong. I just don't seem to think they had a 'desire' to procreate whilst still upright.

 

[TCassidy]

No. But they did not even realize they were nude. Maybe I am wrong here. But I see them as adults who acted like kids(toddlers) who ran around the house naked not realizing they were naked. Help me if I am wrong. I just don't seem to think they had a 'desire' to procreate whilst still upright.

They got hungry, they got thirsty, they got tired, so why wouldn't they also have a desire to reproduce?

When the bible says they were naked "they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed" it just says they were not ashamed. Prior to the fall the naked body was not shameful.

And don't forget the command of God prior to the fall, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

 

[SovereignGrace]

The got hungry, they got thirsty, they got tired, so why wouldn't they also have a desire to reproduce?

When the bible says they were naked "they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed" it just says they were not ashamed. Prior to the fall the naked body was not shameful.

And don't forget the command of God prior to the fall, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

Hard to refute that. Kudos. Not that I am trying to refute you. Just learning to learn better. I am an open door to receiving correction. I was wrong.

I am not Fonzi..."I was wrrrr....I was wroooo...I was wrrrrrr..."

 

[JamesL]

I think about it this way, he represented all of mankind, in him all are dead, and are corrupt and sinful in nature from birth.

Many do not believe this biblical truth and cast out original sin because they believe it to be catholic, and not because they've rightly handled the Word, 2 Timothy 2:15, and have seen this clear truth represented in Scripture, note 1 Corinthians 15:22....

I think you have an unwarranted assumption going.

If Adam had never sinned, he and Eve would still be alone. I think we agree. Yet, I believe the notion of Original Sin is very near heresy.

You assume the two go hand in hand, but they don't.

A proper understanding of the dichotomy of man is the difference. Our physical bodies are procreated, but our spirit comes from God.

Guilt is not associated with the body, or else Jesus would have been guilty - seeing He is a physical descendant of Adam

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If Adam had never sinned, he and Eve would still be alone. I think we agree.

I disagree. Sexual intercourse between man and wife is not sinful, in fact it was commanded of Adam and Eve (Genesis 1:28).

Yet, I believe the notion of Original Sin is very near heresy.

I believe that to deny the biblical doctrine of Original Sin is a most egregious error, not to mention a denial of Scripture (Romans 5:12. Also, compare Genesis 1:27 with Genesis 5:3).

 

[JamesL]

I disagree. Sexual intercourse between man and wife is not sinful, in fact it was commanded of Adam and Eve (Genesis 1:28).

Nobody said it's sinful, just didn't happen until after they were out of the garden.

I believe that to deny the biblical doctrine of Original Sin is a most egregious error, not to mention a denial of Scripture (Romans 5:12. Also, compare Genesis 1:27 with Genesis 5:3).

You have a misnomer going on there. Original Sin is not a biblical doctrine, and you completely misunderstand Romans 5 because
1) you believe a doctrine beforehand and press it onto scripture
2) you seem to be unaware of any distinction between spirit and body
3) you seem to be unwilling to consider the ramifications of Original Sin as it relates to Christ

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Nobody said it's sinful, just didn't happen until after they were out of the garden.

They were commanded to populate the world while they were still in the garden. If they had not sinned (which is the subject of this thread), I think it reasonable to suppose that they would have obeyed that command.

You have a misnomer going on there. Original Sin is not a biblical doctrine, and you completely misunderstand Romans 5 because
1) you believe a doctrine beforehand and press it onto scripture
2) you seem to be unaware of any distinction between spirit and body
3) you seem to be unwilling to consider the ramifications of Original Sin as it relates to Christ

Well this is a great way to have a Scriptural discussion. No Scripture, no argument, just assertion and bluster.
How about you deal with the Scriptures I quoted? What is this distinction between spirit and body of which I am unaware?

 

[TCassidy]

Nobody said it's sinful, just didn't happen until after they were out of the garden.

So you think Adam and Eve sinned even before eating of the fruit of the knowedge of good and evil? They disobeyed God's command in Genesis 1:28 "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it?" Wow.

You have a misnomer going on there. Original Sin is not a biblical doctrine, and you completely misunderstand Romans 5 because
1) you believe a doctrine beforehand and press it onto scripture

No, I don't. And it is never a good idea to claim that somebody does something they clearly don't do in a really pathetic attempt to win an argument.

2) you seem to be unaware of any distinction between spirit and body

More nonsense. We are all aware of the distinction between spirit and body. And, again, it is never a good idea to claim that somebody does something they clearly don't do in a really pathetic attempt to win an argument.

3) you seem to be unwilling to consider the ramifications of Original Sin as it relates to Christ

It would seem that it is you who has failed to understand Original Sin as it relates to the birth of Christ. Christ did not have a human father because the sin nature is passed through the Federal Headship of Adam (1 Corinthians 15:22) and because of that transmitted Original Sin Christ could not have had a human father.

 

[Internet Theologian]

It's quite apparent that God had Adam as our head, and that in him all are dead. The theory that we only become guilty and sinful at the moment we individually sin is a grievous error held by many. No, no! We are all guilty in Adam, at birth. Note Psalms 51:5, Ephesians 2:3. That opportunity did never exist and was not in the decretive will of God.

Look at it this way: What if Adam & Eve had already procreated prior to the fall? What effect would the fall have had on those others? The same? Sinful nature? I think not. Of course they procreated after the fall, and through the seed of Adam all are also guilty as was he, 1 Corinthians 15:22

God knew all this beforehand, and all the world is guilty before God, Romans 3:19. Original sin is biblical, and is scandalous to many.