Penal Substitution Theology and the faith of those without it

[Van]

Hi Martin, you asked, "And in what way do you see Romans 6:3 as meaning that God 'places' people into Christ."
"Or do you not know that all of us who have been [spiritually] baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?" God puts us into Christ spiritually. Paul says the Holy Spirit baptizes [spiritually] into Christ. Thus we are set apart, sanctified, in Christ. See also 1 Corinthians 12:13.

'30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, (1 Cor. 1:30 NASB)

When God puts us into Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ which removes whatever requires the separation from God due to sin. Thus we are made alive together with Christ, at one with Christ. Thus the reconciliation occurs when God puts a person spiritually into Christ.

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Darrel, yes we discussed some translation translate the Greek word meaning reconciliation as atonement. This just confuses the discussion with some using "atonement" to refer to what Christ accomplished on the cross, and others only using it to mean the reconciliation that occurs when God puts an individual into Christ, where they undergo the washing of regeneration and are united with Christ, at one with God.

I posted it primarily to show the relationship between reconciliation and atonement, seeing that we cannot have one without the other. They are both concepts closely associated and never separated from the salvation event in a man's life.

I will say that I take the view that the Cross was sufficient for all sin, but that we do not impose a reception of atonement or reconciliation prior to the positional standing realized in new birth. Something to consider, Van, is that I view a distinction between the "washing of regeneration" (which is the new birth and the cleansing promised by God in the Old Testament) and the "renewing of the Holy Ghost." Paul covers the change that takes place in our condition in the former, the second, the renewing of the Holy Ghost, is not the Holy Ghost "renewing us," but speaks of the "renewing" of the relationship man lost in Adam. So I see two different aspects of our being saved in view, rather than both phrases speaking about the same thing (the change of our condition).

I think we would be for the most part in agreement, though I would have to review the entire thread to see where we, or others, might disagree.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

I absolutely do deny that Christ is the 'means of salvation.' He is the Saviour! He saved us (Matthew 1:21; Titus 2:13-14 etc.). He might possibly be called the means of reconciliation (Colossians 1:20). You can plough your way all through the Scriptures and you will never find Him being called the 'means of salvation.' Faith in Christ is, I suppose, the means of salvation.

I also deny that Christ is the propitiation for all humanity, but these are not the questions I was asking. I am interested to know if you know what 'propitiation' actually means.

Interesting that the Bible claims that Jesus died for the many, that many would get saved thru Him, but never states to us that in His deayj God actually did a real reconcilation of all sinners back to Him!

 

[Van]

I Darrel, you are using the word "atonement" for the work Christ completed on the cross where He ransomed mankind. Since this is not what the word means, usage in this manner confuses the sacrifice of Jesus, with the reconciliation that occurs when God puts us individually in Christ, positional sanctification. We are set apart in Christ.

I have not studied the issue but I understand the washing to occur when God puts us in Christ (a one time event), and the renewing of our mind starts when we are indwelt and continues for the rest of our physical life on earth.

You are spot on, IMHO, when you say God does not impose reconciliation. That is why we have the ministry of reconciliation, where we beg the lost to be reconciled to God through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

Interesting that the Bible claims that Jesus died for the many, that many would get saved thru Him, but never states to us that in His death God actually did a real reconcilation of all sinners back to Him!

I need to repost this, as some might have misunderstood me, as my thought was that God did indeed doa real and full reconciling between Himself and lost sinners at the Cross, but that the atonement was n ot meant a sa ransom for all, but for those whom would be saved by it... Limited atonement viewpoint!

 

[Van]

Christ's Substitutionary Sacrifice ransomed humanity, but only when God transfers individuals into the kingdom of His Son are they reconciled. This reconciliation, one sinner at a time, defines the phrase, God in Christ is reconciling the world to Himself. No need to conflate the two separate achievements.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Christ's Substitutionary Sacrifice ransomed humanity, but only when God transfers individuals into the kingdom of His Son are they reconciled.

You write as if these are two events separated in time. Not so. Our Lord on the cross cried, "It is finished!" "It is accomplished!" It is paid for!" "It is ended!" God is reconciled to sinners when they trust in Christ because propitiation is made for their sins. Christ has done it. He has done it all! God is reconciled to sinners, declares them justified and they are united to Christ. There is a logical order to these things, but effectually, they happen all at once.

 

[Yeshua1]

Romans 3:25. ''Whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood through faith.' God is propitiated by the blood of Christ our Saviour shed upon the cross towards those whom He gave Him to save (John 6:38-39; 17:2; Hebrews 2:13b).

'Til on that cross, as Jesus died,
The wrath of God was satisfied-
For every sin on Him was laid;
Here in the death of Christ I live.'

And in what way do you see Romans 6:3 as meaning that God 'places' people into Christ. On what basis does He do it? Are you thinking of water baptism? Where does faith come into it? I am not (yet ) saying you are wrong; I'm just trying to understand what you're saying.

Didn't God choose us before Eternity to be found in Christ, and that he placed us into the Body at moment the Holy Spirit resided in us?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Didn't God choose us before Eternity to be found in Christ,

Certainly. But that does not mean that He was reconciled to us or that we were forgiven before we trusted in Christ. Until that time we 'were by nature children of wrath, just as the others' (Eph. 2:3).

and that he placed us into the Body at moment the Holy Spirit resided in us?

Not until He was reconciled to us by the sufferings of Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

Certainly. But that does not mean that He was reconciled to us or that we were forgiven before we trusted in Christ. Until that time we 'were by nature children of wrath, just as the others' (Eph. 2:3).

Not until He was reconciled to us by the sufferings of Christ.

Agreed, as before we were saved and new creatures in Christ, we were still found dead in our sin natures, and judged as condemned by being in Adam, and thank God that when we were found in jesus, that was all reversed, and we were right then placed out of the Kingdom of Satan into that of Jesus!

Think many get hung up in the truths that while we were in mind of God already saved and secured, that salvation still must get worked into our own time and space!

 

[Van]

Folks, reconciliation (being placed in Christ and undergoing the washing of regeneration) occurs during the life of believers, not when Christ died. When He died He became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. When God puts us spiritually in Christ, after crediting our faith as righteousness, we are reconciled through the blood of the Lamb.

Consider this, if the reconciliation of the world was finished when Christ died, why does scripture say God is reconciling the world years later? No answer will be forthcoming as the view is unbiblical. If we were reconciled when Christ died, why do we have the ministry and message of reconciliation to the lost? No answer will be forthcoming as the view is unbiblical.

To confuse and conflate Christ's Substitutionary Sacrifice with our reconciliation when God puts us spiritually in Christ is without merit.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Folks, reconciliation (being placed in Christ and undergoing the washing of regeneration)

Van, you don't appear to know what reconciliation means in English, let alone in Scripture. Reconciliation occurs when estranged parties are brought together, often through the agency of a Mediator.

occurs during the life of believers, not when Christ died.

Indeed so. Sinners are reconciled to God when they are united to Christ by faith

When He died He became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. When God puts us spiritually in Christ, after crediting our faith as righteousness, we are reconciled through the blood of the Lamb.

It seems that you don't know what 'propitiation' means either. A propitiation is a gesture, gift or action that turns away wrath. The outraged justice of God is propitiated by the death of Christ, and He is reconciled to guilty sinners when they trust in Him.

Consider this, if the reconciliation of the world was finished when Christ died, why does scripture say God is reconciling the world years later?

Everything was finished and ready when the Lord Jesus died on the cross. That is why He said, "It is finished!" That is why the king in the parable says, '.....All things are ready. Come to the wedding!' (Matthew 22:4). But the reconciliation procured by the cross is accessed in time and only by faith.

No answer will be forthcoming as the view is unbiblical

Silly boy.

 

[Van]

Martin, my view reflects scripture, yours ignores scripture.

Sinners are united by God to Christ through faith.

You deny Christ is the means of salvation so it is you who does not know what the word means. No verse says God was propitiated by Christ's death. Just another of your fictions.

BTW, God is not reconciled to us, we are reconciled to God.

Now you reverse field and correctly say Christ procured (purchased) reconciliation. Pick a side and stick with it. Christ the place of propitiation (the propitiatory shelter) performs without hands the circumcision of Christ when God places individuals into Him.

Scripture is not silly.

 

[Van]

Does anyone else have questions concerning what scripture says of Christ's finished work on the cross. Christ's Substitutionary Sacrifice?

 

[Van]

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (NASB)

When God transfers us from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son, what God had and would have held against us was taken out of the way (God being propitiated) and we are reconciled and made alive together with Christ. Now when does this occur? When God puts us spiritually into Christ!

 

[JonC]

Does anyone else have questions concerning what scripture says of Christ's finished work on the cross. Christ's Substitutionary Sacrifice?

No. I think we know what scripture says and what Van says. It's gonna be a tough decision weighing the options . Van's a pretty persuasive guy.

 

[Van]

Scripture says God is reconciling the world to Himself. It does not say God has reconciled the world to Himself.

Scripture is clear, individuals are reconciled after they have been children of wrath. Thus as each human being is conceived in iniquity, being by nature children of wrath, we know they have not yet been reconciled. All this effort to claim reconciliation occurred when Christ died is without merit.

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (NASB)

 

[JonC]

Reconciliation occurs when estranged parties are brought together, often through the agency of a Mediator.

Exactly!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I am on holiday from tomorrow for just over a week, and will probably not be taking part in any further discussions until my return.

 

[JonC]

I am on holiday from tomorrow for just over a week, and will probably not be taking part in any further discussions until my return.

Have a good week - I'm not on holiday, we don't take those where I live . But I am going on vacation for just over a week.