Featured Christ's Subsitutionary Sacrifice

No, I won't open another thread, but thanks for the invite. Going to have to leave here soon again, because I am spending time I don't have, so I will just deal with the ongoing discussions I see as profitable.

I will just address your post on one point, then I will bow out of this thread:

The "estrangement" actually has another pre-supposition I'm wondering if you are fully contemplating: that there was a previous relationship from which the two parties become estranged. The lack of relationship men are born into with God does not echo the estrangement of Philemon and Onesimus. In that relationship there was a master slave relationship, not so with men when they are born into the world. The "reconciliation goes back to the relationship shared between God and His creation, Adam, which was lost.

Secondly, on this point, and I am not trying to be offensive here, I think you minimalize the Gospel by implying that repentance contributes to the salvation of the individual. That repentance, in my view, is just one of the several things God effects, rather than man patting himself on the back and saying "I repented, thus I was saved."

Don't take that the wrong way, it is just worded to illustrate why I disagree with this in relation to your statement.

The truth is that salvation, as a whole, is wholly the Work of Holy God. The debate between Arminians and Calvinists could end, after so many centuries, if they would simply acknowledge that man plays no part in salvation, but that he is indebted wholly to the intervention of God. To illustrate, consider this scenario: you are sleepwalking, walk into a lake, and in your dream you are an Olympic swimmer winning the gold. Suddenly you hear a voice saying "wake up, wake up! You're drowning!" You come to your senses, understand your condition, and desperately grab the hand of the one calling to you.

Do you get out of the water and say "I repented of my actions?" No, that's not even a question, you simply acknowledge that your condition was one in which you were dying, and apart from that intervention you would have...died.

So too with repentance, God creates that response simply by awakening us, that is, enlightening us to our condition. Repentance is a given because before that repentance occurs there is the recognition of the reality of the peril you are in.

Now, we go back to salvation, and again we recognize that we do not contribute the first element which actually saves us. God does.

Now we go back to reconciliation, and we recognize that it is God Who does the reconciling...alone. Not because we did something that merited being reconciled, but because He chose to save us.

Hope that makes sense, brother, and that is my last post in this thread. As I said before, I may be wrong, but you two are closer than I think either of you care to admit.


God bless.

 

can God reject faith in jesus though even?

 

I don't deny for one second that salvation is all of grace and that repentance, like faith, is actually the gift of God.

However, that does not alter the command of the Lord Jesus Christ, "Repent and believe the good news" (Mark 1:15).

I'm sorry that you're disappearing again. I enjoy discussing with you. However, you're right that this forum takes up too much time.

 

It is true that the New Covenant is 'in [Christ's] blood' but it was promised as far back as Genesis 3:15 and agreed in eternity past.

1. 'Propitiation' and 'means of salvation' are not synonymous. If you think they are, you need to define your terms and prove it.
2. The Lord Jesus Christ is not a 'means of salvation.' He is our 'Lord and Saviour.' He has saved us. 'And you shall call His name JESUS, for He shall save His people from their sins.'

Nope indeed! 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.' Not, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you may be saved if God credits your faith as righteousness.'

Must we repent of our sins? Yes! With that addition, any Calvinist would say Amen!

God does not desire the death of the sinner, but that all should come to repentance. The trouble is that they don't, because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts.

Amen! I couldn't agree more. But how can you tell people to trust in Christ for salvation if you believe that God may not credit their faith as righteousness and overrule the whole thing?

 

Now Martin, I said that was my last post, and when I say it's my last post, it's my last...

...oh never mind.

I know you don't.

John also commanded Israel to repent, but that didn't save them either.

Again, the Gospel is not revealed to men during Christ's Ministry as it is when the Spirit is sent. Not even the disciples understood it.

Now I ask you, does this...

Acts 2:38

King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


...mean that baptism is how the Holy Ghost is sent? I'm guessing you would agree it doesn't. But the terminology suggests it to some, and confirms it for others.

So too, with this...


Mark 1:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


...the assumption that the Gospel of the Kingdom is identical to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. From a retrospective perspective, this is ultimately true, but, we cannot nullify Paul's teaching concerning the Gospel of Christ being a mystery not revealed to past Ages. For example:


Romans 16:25-26

King James Version (KJV)


25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


How that plays into what we are discussing is like this: the assumption is made that because the Lord tells them to repent that the result is repentance unto life as it is in receiving the Gospel of Christ. Tough issue to accept, I know, but it is there to see if the Mystery is balanced with what is actually taught by Christ in the Gospels.

I'm very undisciplined when it comes to this and really any forum. Know where I can get a good paying job doing this? lol

And just wanted to touch on this. If I promise you I am going to bring my lawnmower over for you to have, when does it cease being promise? When it's delivered, right?

When God states...

Genesis 3:15

King James Version (KJV)


15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


...we would probably agree that this is yet promise, right? That it has not yet taken place yet?

How about when this promise is revealed in more detail?


Isaiah 53:5

King James Version (KJV)

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


...would we take this to mean that we had received peace and healing, or that He was already wounded and bruised?


How about here...


John 12:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.



The primary point being in the Old Testament we see the promise of what would take place and the resulting redemption that came from the fulfilling of that promise. It hadn't happened when it was promised in the Garden, it hadn't happened when it was promised to Abraham, it hadn't happened when Isaiah prophesied about it, but it happened that day when Christ hung on the Cross. Atonement has a day in history when it is...finished.


Okay, sorry for rambling, I'll try to bow out again, lol. If I don't get the chance to talk to you before I leave, I pray God will bless your ministry, my friend.


God bless.

 

You suggested that I do not believe that God credits our faith as righteousness. I replied. "Of course He does. Don't be so silly!" How is that obfuscation? Pull yourself together, man.

Not denied at all. But the New Covenant is the fulfilment of the Everlasting Covenant (Hebrews 13:20) and of all the types and shadows of the O.T.

He is far more than that to me; He s my God and Saviour (2 Peter 1:1) and my Lord and saviour (2 Peter 1:11 etc.). Is He your Saviour, Van? Can you say, "Jesus Christ is my Saviour"? Not merely the means, but the actual Saviour? Was the Lord Jesus thinking of you when He said, "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory....." (John 17:24)? Do you think the Father said to Him, "Not so fast, Son. I want to vet all these people you shed Your blood for, and if I don't like the look of them, they're not coming here!"? The idea of the Father overruling the Son is blasphemous.

what happened to Him being the Truth and the Life?

Propitiation' and 'means of salvation' are two different things. And to deny that Jesus Christ is the Saviour is to deny the Gospel.

The Lord Jesus said, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me....." Those whom The Father gave to the Son in eternity past, and for whom He shed His precious blood, will come to Him. "......And the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." No one who comes to Christ in true repentance and faith will ever be cast out. The idea of the Father refusing to accept those for whom the Son has died to reconcile to Him is absurd.

 

We are moving forward. Christ is no longer the 'means of salvation.' Propitiation is now the means of salvation. It's like drawing teeth, but we're getting there.

Ooops! Still not there. What have we left out? Pretty much the whole of soteriology. Election and foreknowledge by the Father, active and passive obedience of Christ, Holy Spirit's work in calling, convicting, drawing, sanctifying in conjunction with the preaching of the Gospel.

Much, much better. At least we don't have the ghastly concept of our Lord reduced to 'means,' but propitiation and redemption are not the only parts of salvation. You seem to have forgotten the Gospel. And reconciliation is not the result of salvation, it is the crucial element. And it is two-way. God must be reconciled to sinful man, but also God-hating man must be reconciled to God.

 

So in your theology, God placed all sinners under the new Covenant, as Jesus purchased/ransomed them all, and when they reject Him, they nullify that?

 

In fairness to Y1, he asked did you think all sinners are under the New Covenant.

And by what conduit is one transferred? Faith. Now, seeing that is by faith we are justified, and faith being a fruit of the Spirit, it is when God quickens us, grants us faith and repentance, we are saved.

Christ rose again for our justification. Justification is by faith...both us agree thus far, I am sure...so our faith is sourced by Christ's resurrection. So this 'our faith' you keep saying is actually gifted to us by God.

 

So are all sinners placed now by God under the new Covenant, or is that reserved for just those who are now saved?

And what is the basis of salvation for you, the faith of a person, or the Cross of Christ?
And if you can claim that you were the reason that you chose to believe apart from any working of God in your life, would that not mean that God looked at you as the primary reason you were saved?

 

Once again, 'means of salvation' and 'propitiation' ARE NOT SYNONYMOUS. If you think they are, you need to explain why. And The Lord Jesus Christ is the SAVIOUR. He SAVES sinners. Get it? Read Romans 5:8-11. We have been 'justified by His blood' and 'saved from wrath through Him.' The shedding of His blood is our means of salvation, but He is our Saviour. 2 Timothy 1:10 or Titus 1:4. He is 'our Saviour Jesus Christ' or 'The Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.'

Then how is Christ the propitiation for the whole world as you have proclaimed so many times? If He has not propitiated God towards the whole world, whom has He propitiated? the Pope? The man in the moon?

Indeed it doesn't. But propitiation is a major part of reconciliation, being the turning away of God's righteous anger. If Christ is the propitiation of every single person that ever lived (I assume that to be your definition of 'world') then how come God is overruling the work of Christ in salvation?

But can you not see the disconnect here? What, under your system, does the Lord Jesus, 'The Saviour,' have to do with who, ultimately, gets saved?

You have just refused to do so again. The Bible says that 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.' On what basis does God deny His own word? What does that 'crediting' have to do with the Lord Jesus Christ and His work upon the cross? He has died for everybody, but everybody is not being saved. God is filtering our the people for whom Christ shed His blood. How come?

But if God does not 'put' someone into Christ for whom He suffered and died, His suffering and death has been in vain.

But what has this to do with the Lord Jesus' propitiation? God can 'put' people into Christ without our Lord doing anything if He wills.

Is it not the other way around? If a person has come to Christ, he has been put into Christ. 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.'

No. If a person has been given to Christ, He (Christ) has redeemed him (John 6:39 etc.). There is no question of him ever being lost. "Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life' (John 5:24). We can discuss what it means to 'hear Christ's word' and the nature of saving faith if you like, but these verses I have quoted are absolutely clear. The Father does not second-guess the saving work of Christ.

This is the wrong way round. When a person repents and trusts in Christ for salvation, God justifies him and he is united to Christ by the Holy Spirit.

See above. A sinner, when he is justified, is not made righteous, he is declared righteous, his sins are forgiven, and the Good Shepherd leads him in the paths of righteousness (Psalm 23:3).

Adoption is a separate thing from the redemption of the body. When someone trusts in Christ for salvation and God justifies him, He also adopts him into His family.

Salvation and positional sanctification are two separate things. They both occur when God justifies a sinner.
But this 'putting into Christ' is not something that happens subsequent to the cross. It happened, positionally, in eternity past. 'Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love' (Ephesians 1:4). Vitally and fiducially (ie. to do with faith), of course, God's people are united to Christ at regeneration by the Holy Spirit. 'But he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him' (1 Cor. 6:17). Hence Paul can talk of those who were 'in Christ before me' (Romans 16:7); but in the eternal plan of God, His elect were in Christ from eternity past, died with Him on the cross (Galatians 2:20), rose with Him and are seated with Him in the heavenly places (Ephesians 2:5-7). They were given to Christ and He redeemed them.

See my last post. Repetition is tedious.

 

Van rejects that faith is a gift from God tords his elect unto salvation in Jesus, and he also rejects the truth of God first choosing us, and due to that , we will then choose Him!
He bases it all upon the Lord seeing that we will make the right decision to accept Jesus and get saved by Him then!

 

Look, I have been studying Romans for over 6 months now. I have read it multiple times in the KJV, YLT, NIV, and the Greek/Hebrew interlinears by Jay P. Green, Sr., and will start reading it in the ESV shortly. Granted, all the studying in the world does not mean I have, or will, corner the market of understanding Romans. It does not say He takes our worthless faith(if it is worthless then God can not use it) and credits it for righteousness.

It says that Abraham believed(not worthless faith in the least) and God accounted/credited/imputed it unto him for righteousness. Look at Abram when God came unto him. He was a pagan, living in the pagan land of Ur, whose family were pagans, and his dad Terah, was a maker of idols. He had no faith in God, in fact, his faith was in the idols he worshipped prior to God visiting him. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, and Abram was born again/born anew/born from above and believed God and was credited with righteousness.

Now, once God quickened Abram, gave him faith and repentance, it was correctly said 'Abraham's faith'...