Salvation and God's Sovereignty

[Van]

Hi Darrel, yes we can find where an OT Saint was said to be righteous. But not so righteous as to enter heaven, still separated by a lack of perfection.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time. Gen 6:9 But he was a sinner. For all have fallen short of the glory of God.

Ditto as the term is applied to any OT saint.

 

[Van]

You do not have the book of Ephesians in your Bible then?

You are the one making false claims not supported by any scripture. God credits our faith as righteousness. Until you admit to that truth, you are just dancing the dance of obfuscation.

 

[Van]

And is his faith bringing the righteousness of Christ to bear for him in regards to eternal redemption? Meaning, do we parallel our faith and the righteousness declared with the righteousness of Christ which is imputed? Or equate them? Did not Christ have to die...despite the fact that Abraham believed God and it was credited as righteousness?
God bless.

Hi Darrel, lets unpack this as you rattled off lots of assertions:

1) Abraham's faith resulted in him obtaining approval and being placed in Abraham's bosom, until Christ died.

2) Our faith provides the means of access to the grace bestowed to those placed in Christ. Romans 5:2

3) We are justified in Christ, made righteous, and at peace with God.

4) Did Christ have to die to become the propitiation for the whole world? Yes

5) Abraham's faith in God was credited as righteousness. But the New Covenant had not been inaugurated, and so Abraham had to wait to be made perfect. Hebrews 11:39-40.

Let me just unpack this for you, we are saved by grace through faith. Now when a person enters a room, they first go through the door, and then they have entered the room. So faith comes before receiving the grace of salvation, just as the door comes before entering the abode of Christ. When God credits our worthless faith as righteousness, He transfers us into Christ.

Now salvation is impossible without God's revelation, for that is what we trust in, the "name" (or what is known about) of Christ.

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Darrel, yes we can find where an OT Saint was said to be righteous. But not so righteous as to enter heaven, still separated by a lack of perfection.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time. Gen 6:9 But he was a sinner. For all have fallen short of the glory of God.

Ditto as the term is applied to any OT saint.

So we can see righteousness credited which is separate and distinct from the imputed righteousness of Christ, right?

I think we can make that same distinction when we view saving faith, in that we are not "saved" by it, but saved through the Work of Christ and our faith is but an element that results from the Work God does in salvation itself.

We believe Sola Fide, but Sola Gratia as well, right? We don't say salvation results apart from either. By grace through faith, and that not of ourselves. But when we look at the singular reality that it is the Blood (death) of Christ that saves, it makes clear, I think, faith's role in our salvation.

We both know the natural man cannot understand nor receive the spiritual things of God, so we have to pinpoint how men have faith. Faith, like repentance, is the result of God's enlightening work. We would no more say we, of ourselves, repented apart from the Gospel than we can say we chose to have faith. Until God enlightened our minds to truth, we did not have an opinion of truth that wasn't our own. When He did, the result was understanding the reality of our condition, which brought about repentance. And when we understood the truth He imparted to us, that Christ died that we would not have to, faith was generated in that Sacrifice. Just like the repentance was. And all of this due to God's intervention.

And that is what I think is in view concerning faith in the preceding posts. Simply that while we are saved by faith, the means of salvation is Christ's death on the Cross alone.

Hi Darrel, yes we can find where an OT Saint was said to be righteous. But not so righteous as to enter heaven, still separated by a lack of perfection.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time. Gen 6:9 But he was a sinner. For all have fallen short of the glory of God.

Ditto as the term is applied to any OT saint.

One element of Perfection is the remission of sins, which we see numerous Old Testament Saints who were described as righteous, as you say, yet had not received Atonement, which was accomplished through the Cross. So this forces us, I think, to examine the accreditation of righteousness which I think forces us to distinguish between the righteousness accredited for obedience/belief in the Old Testament and that which is imputed to those who believe on the Risen Savior. And I think that is the parallel being drawn in regards to salvation in Christ, the faith of the New Covenant believer and the Old Testament Saint being identical in both character as well as in what it accomplishes. If we had simply the faith there would be no salvation in New Covenant terms, though we might say that justification might still be in view. In one of the other threads talking about baptisms we have discussed the salvific events recorded there. Cornelius presents a good illustration of transition between the Ages as a man God had favor on but who had not yet placed his faith in Christ. Israel herself stood as a people who had hope in Messiah, just as perhaps many Jews today still do, awaiting His first coming, but, until specific faith in Christ results from hearing the Gospel, we would not view these faiths as saving in New Covenant terms.

Okay, have to get going, sorry for rambling, lol.

Hope you and everyone here has a blessed day.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Darrel, lets unpack this as you rattled off lots of assertions:

1) Abraham's faith resulted in him obtaining approval and being placed in Abraham's bosom, until Christ die

That's the point: Abraham had faith yet he was not saved according to New Covenant conditions which arose only through the Work of Christ and subsequently the Work God is now performing in this world which was not taking place in Abraham, or any Old Testament Saints' day (though those alive during that transitional period could be pointed out, but you know what I mean).

Abraham, when he died, did not go into Heaven but Abraham's Bosom (sheol/hades). The reason for that is because his faith was not...sufficient to atone for sins. That is the point I think that Yeshua1 is trying to make. Much of what you say here affirms that.

2) Our faith provides the means of access to the grace bestowed to those placed in Christ. Romans 5:2

No, Van...Christ provides that means:


Hebrews 10:19-20

King James Version (KJV)


19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


Those who were under Law could be found faithful by observing the Law:


Luke 1

King James Version (KJV)


5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.



But they did not have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them. That would not be possible until Christ died and made that provision.

3) We are justified in Christ, made righteous, and at peace with God.

That is not argued, it is true. But the Old Testament Saint...was not.

Remember, "God was in Christ reconciling the World unto Himself?"

4) Did Christ have to die to become the propitiation for the whole world? Yes

Not argued.

5) Abraham's faith in God was credited as righteousness. But the New Covenant had not been inaugurated, and so Abraham had to wait to be made perfect. Hebrews 11:39-40.

Right, that is central to what we are actually discussing right now.

Let me just unpack this for you, we are saved by grace through faith.

We can drop the faith from this and it will still be true we are saved by grace. We can see it by His mercy in Titus 3:4-5.

We are saved by God, and the means of salvation is the Cross of Christ. That precedes faith and was awaited on by the faithful of the Old Testament. You know this.

Now when a person enters a room, they first go through the door, and then they have entered the room.

And the problem with the analogy is that you are putting the Door in the room.

So faith comes before receiving the grace of salvation, just as the door comes before entering the abode of Christ.

I agree, but the faith is not the salvation itself. it's a little more complicated than that.

Just as we are "saved by repenting," we are saved by faith, but, the repentance and faith are a result of that produced by God's intervention.

Salvation does not begin at regeneration, it begins in the Ministry of the Spirit of God to the world. The natural man is enlightened to the truth, and there is either rejection of that truth (i.e., Hebrews 1026-29; 2 Peter 2), or, there is an acknowledgment of the truth which is associated with the repentance and faith that is generated.

We are saved because Christ died in our place, taking upon Himself the penalty for our sins.

When God credits our worthless faith as righteousness, He transfers us into Christ.

So where does the righteousness of Christ come in?

And what relationship does our faith, which is counted as righteousness, have to Christ's righteousness which is tied to His sinless Being dying in our place?

Now salvation is impossible without God's revelation, for that is what we trust in, the "name" (or what is known about) of Christ.

Also agreed, and this is the one truth that would help bring many groups at odds together, if they would just understand this.

And the revelation that is being given in this Age is given by the Comforter:



John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)


7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


And that revelation is specific to the Gospel through which we are saved. The Gospel is that revelation, in this Age, imparted to the natural man. We see that natural men receive this mionistry above because Christ makes it clear "Of sin, because they believe not on me."

When the Comforter convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment, the natural man responds within the framework of that enlightenment. It is not something he does of himself, but like Peter who confessed Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God, even so the natural man has revealed to him the truth through which he can be saved. Because the natural man has a predisposition for sin and rejecting God, he can reject that truth. But, those who believe, repent, and place faith in that truth...are saved. They are at that moment transferred from that natural condition of separation and lifelessness into His Kingdom, receiving life through receiving Christ. They are at that point new creatures, quite unlike what they were previously.

And their salvation is credited to...God alone.

They did not of themselves believe, repent, or gain faith, because prior to that revelation from God they were blind to their condition, thus could not of themselves respond to the spiritual things of God.

And I hope you haven't posted again, lol, I really need to get going.


God bless.

 

[Van]

So we can see righteousness credited which is separate and distinct from the imputed righteousness of Christ, right?

No. What verse are you saying says the righteousness of Christ is imputed? I am saying the "righteousness" attributed to OT saints did not make them perfect, that is why they were still separated, they did not enter heaven, until made perfect after Christ died.

You are missing the whole idea of faith providing our access to the grace of salvation. We hear the gospel. We trust fully in Christ. God credits our faith as righteousness. We are not just giving lip service. We are not hypocritical. We are not trusting superficially, or still treasuring the things of the world. When God accepts our faith, God puts us into Christ, where we are made righteous, and alive together with Christ.

Yes I believe in scripture alone, my views are 100% what scripture actually says.

We both know the natural man cannot understand nor receive the spiritual things of God

Yes, but does this say "all" the spiritual things of God or might the idea be some of the things of God. Natural men can receive spiritual milk, but not spiritual meat. 1 Cor. 2:14-3:3

And that is what I think is in view concerning faith in the preceding posts. Simply that while we are saved by faith, the means of salvation is Christ's death on the Cross alone.

Close but no cigar

We are saved through faith by grace.

Until a person undergoes the circumcision of Christ, they have not been made righteous. They are still separated from God.

 

[Van]

No, Van...Christ provides that means:

You can deny scripture till the cows come home, but Romans 5:2 says our faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand. You cannot remove "through faith" from the equation.

 

[Yeshua1]

You can deny scripture till the cows come home, but Romans 5:2 says our faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand. You cannot remove "through faith" from the equation.

And even that faith is a gift from God unto us...
And when the Bible records down to us in the OT times that a person was perfect in his ways, was NOT saying that they were perfet in the sense of never having sinned, nor that they keep the Law exactly, but that they were perfect in comparison to others around them were doing that!
And the reason that you were saved and someone else was not is due to you alone deciding to place faith in jesus to save you, apart from ANYTHING God had to do for you, is that your reasoning here?

 

[Darrell C]

So we can see righteousness credited which is separate and distinct from the imputed righteousness of Christ, right? No. What verse are you saying says the righteousness of Christ is imputed? I am saying the "righteousness" attributed to OT saints did not make them perfect, that is why they were still separated, they did not enter heaven, until made perfect after Christ died.

You are missing the whole idea of faith providing our access to the grace of salvation. We hear the gospel. We trust fully in Christ. God credits our faith as righteousness. We are not just giving lip service. We are not hypocritical. We are not trusting superficially, or still treasuring the things of the world. When God accepts our faith, God puts us into Christ, where we are made righteous, and alive together with Christ.

Yes I believe in scripture alone, my views are 100% what scripture actually says.

Do you really equate our faith being credited as righteousness with the Righteousness of Christ?

Note the word credited, Van. Ours is...Christ's is not.

Yes, but does this say "all" the spiritual things of God or might the idea be some of the things of God. Natural men can receive spiritual milk, but not spiritual meat. 1 Cor. 2:14-3:3

The text does not allow for there to be any leeway into "some things," Van.

And I would point out that the context is dealing specifically with the revelation of the Mystery of God.

I am short on time, so will just say that despite the fact that Abraham was justified by faith, that does not mean it can be equated to the accreditation of righteousness which is directly related to Christ's Work.

This is similar to those who reject Sola Fide (meaning not understanding Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians to mean what it states in a universal declaration that the natural man cannot perceive or receive the spiritual things of God) as stated in Ephesians 2:8-10.

Consider:


1 Corinthians 2:9-14

King James Version (KJV)


9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.



In blue are positive statements that the spiritual things of God are imparted by God, and in red are negative statements that also confirm a basic truth: the natural man cannot understand the Gospel apart from God's intervention.

This difference is seen in Peter:


Matthew 16:15-17

King James Version (KJV)


15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.



Matthew 16:20-23

King James Version (KJV)


20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


In the first quote we see the spiritual things of God is imparted, not through the efforts of the flesh, mind, or will, but by God. As you affirm that is the opnly way for spiritual truth to be understood. I will point out that the revelation imparted is that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that this should not be confused with what is in view in 1 Corinthians 2, which is the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel, which no eye had seen, ear had heard, nor had it, at the time of the Prophecy...entered into the hearts of men that which God had prepared for, note it carefully...those that love God. Abraham would fall into that category, my friend.

In the second quote we see the disciples receive the Gospel directly from Christ.

And does Peter rejoice?

Why not?

Because he does not yet have revealed to him the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ.

He knows Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, but He he has not seen, has not heard, and it has not entered into his heart that which God had prepared...for him.

Now, read this again in that context and see if I have it wrong:



1 Corinthians 2:4-10

King James Version (KJV)


4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


I agree, Van, only through the revelatory work of God can man understand the Gospel. This is taught clearly in the New Testament, and seen implicitly in the Old.

In view in 1 Corinthians 2 is the revelation of the Gospel, and a universal truth that the natural man cannot understand the Gospel, because it is the Gospel...God prepared for those that love Him. And the Gospel is salvation in Christ through His Work.

We see this too here...



John 1:11-13

King James Version (KJV)


11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Because of this, while we are saved by faith, we don't nullify the fact that we are saved by the Blood (death) of Christ alone. Men had faith before the Cross, but I think you would agree they were not saved according to the Promise of God, precisely because they were not made perfect until Christ died.

Close but no cigar

We are saved through faith by grace.

Until a person undergoes the circumcision of Christ, they have not been made righteous. They are still separated from God.

And I agree with that completely.

But the means of salvation is the Cross of Christ alone. We do believe when we are enlightened to the truth of the Gospel. We do repent. We do place faith in Christ. But those are results of the saving grace of God, rather than the means. We see His intervention first and foremost beginning with the Ministry of the Comforter, which leads us to the truth, whereby we can believe (because we can for the first time recognize the truth of our condition and the means of salvation), repent, and place faith in the Risen Savior.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

You can deny scripture till the cows come home, but Romans 5:2 says our faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand. You cannot remove "through faith" from the equation.

I'm not. Nor do I remove repentance. But why aren't you saying we are saved by repentance?

Some do, you know, based on this...


Acts 2:38

King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Is Peter in error, or those who teach men are saved through repentance? Some go so far as to say men are saved by being baptized.

But are they not saved through the Work of Christ? Is that not what is demanded of men to believe?

I am not divorcing the elements of salvation from salvation, Van, simply pointing out the means of salvation, which is Christ's Death.

This is reiterated countless times in Scripture:


Colossians 1:12-14

King James Version (KJV)


12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:


It is upon the basis of Christ's death that redemption is possible, and what follows is belief, repentance, and faith. Those three elements are the result of the intervention of God Himself, so that not one aspect of salvation can be attributed to man. It is, as I said, within the framework of the Ministry of he Comforter that the natural man understands these truths, for that is precisely what Christ taught He would do among unbelievers. They are not regenerated so they can believe, repent, and place faith in Christ, they are regenerated when they believe, repent, and place faith in Christ.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

our brother van does seem to place such a premimium on faith to ave us, that it does beg the question of if he would have our faith is the surety of salvation, and not what God did for us at the Cross?

And if faith indeed is the way and means that God is allowed to give us credit in order to save us, since Jesus died for all as per Van, and put all under the new Covenant, is the reason then why some are saved, others lost due to just the saved deciding for themselves and being shown to be a better class of sinner?

I see that as the logical outcome of what he believes....

 

[Van]

I am going to keep this short:
1) We are saved through faith. Our faith provides our access to God's saving grace. Please agree or tell me how Romans 5:2 reads to you.
2) Please provide the quote where I equated the righteousness of Christ with the righteousness accredited to our faith. Otherwise you are misrepresenting my view.
3) The text of 1 Cor. 2:14-3:3 requires the understanding of some things, spiritual meat.
4) What verse says Abraham was justified by faith under the Old Covenant.
5) Scripture says we are MADE righteous in Christ.
6) Please address the passage cited, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.
7) Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved through faith, and salvation is a gift of God, not faith.
8) We are saved through faith which provides our access to saving grace. For you to want to drop this truth from your understanding is without merit.
9) Why did Paul speak to the new Christians as men of flesh? Because they had not matured and learned from their indwelt Spirit. Thus men of flesh can understand and respond to spiritual milk. No other understanding is possible if we just read the text.
10) God has revealed the gospel to mankind in the New Testament. It is the power of God for salvation. No passage or verse conflicts with people being able to understand the milk of the gospel. It is so simple a child can understand it.
11) We are saved through faith. And John 1:12-13 clearly teaches people can receive the gospel.
12) We are saved through faith by grace, note this does not equate faith with grace, provided by Christ.
13) Again you go through the access (faith) before receiving saving grace. Romans 5:2 is crystal. No need to change the subject.

 

[Van]

Hi Y1, I see you are back to denying we are saved through faith, that faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand. Romans 5:2 is crystal. And you still have not answered the question, does God credit our faith as righteousness. You are still changing the subject and not answering the question. And you still deny 1 Timothy 2:4-6, which is crystal, Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all mankind.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hi Y1, I see you are back to denying we are saved through faith,

He has NOT done this whatsoever. Shame on you...

 

[Van]

Hi SG, here is the Y1 quote:

And if faith indeed is the way and means that God is allowed to give us credit in order to save us, since Jesus died for all as per Van, and put all under the new Covenant, is the reason then why some are saved, others lost due to just the saved deciding for themselves and being shown to be a better class of sinner?

Note Y1 said "if faith" not "since faith." This is a denial that we are saved through faith. In his view were were chosen, then given faith (the gift of faith) rather than chosen through faith in the Truth.

 

[SovereignGrace]

He is denying your innate faith view, as do I. But he, and I as well, believe in salvation by faith. The 'if faith' he is referring to is innate faith.

 

[Yeshua1]

You can deny scripture till the cows come home, but Romans 5:2 says our faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand. You cannot remove "through faith" from the equation.

Again, if this faith was of you alone,, without any helping /enabling from/by God , then you could boast that you were smart enought to accept jesus and gdet saved, but since even your faith is something God grants to you, then all boasting is rendered mute!

 

[Yeshua1]

He is denying your innate faith view, as do I. But he, and I as well, believe in salvation by faith. The 'if faith' he is referring to is innate faith.

Correct, for if it was"our faith " that sinners call summon up in order to get saved by God, why does God state that salvation from start to finish is of the Lord?

 

[Van]

Again, if this faith was of you alone,, without any helping /enabling from/by God , then you could boast that you were smart enough to accept Jesus and get saved, but since even your faith is something God grants to you, then all boasting is rendered mute!

Yet another denial of another passage of scripture. Romans 3:27 Your claim has been excluded.

Y1 simply denies one scripture after another.

Next, his assertion misrepresents my view. How could we put our love and devotion in Christ if we had not had Christ revealed to us through God's word and the witness of believers? So this "without any" is false and misleading.

Romans 5:2 declares that our faith provides our access to the saving grace provided by Christ's Subsitutionary Sacrifice. So yet another denial of the obvious.

 

[Van]

The denials:
We are saved through faith.
God credits our faith as righteousness
Our faith provides our access to the saving grace provided by Christ's sacrifice.
We are chosen for salvation through faith in the Truth.
Men of flesh can understand spiritual milk.