Featured Purgatory

Do ou have the full assurance that when you die, say right now, that you would skip Purgetory and go right into presence of the Lord?

For good works testify after being saved that we are now saved, but have NO PART in saving us, as that is thru grace alone/faith alone![/QUOTE]


Look, you cannot say without a doubt that purgatory is not something that could happen to us. This could be a distinct possibility as I believe the Scriptures allude to it and if I have to go through a purifying fire because I had some lustful thoughts just before I died so be it. And if my faith in Jesus Christ as Savior gets me right into heaven, praise God forever! Either way I get in.

We think we know so much as regards spiritual matters, but I think that upon our passing from this world to the next one we will see that we knew so little.

 

Your listing a lot of reasons why faith alone doesn't work.

Taking responsibility of my neighbor is not required. Since there is NOTHING I can do nor them concerning salvation.

Therefore you get FAITH ALONE in action. You should just simply have Faith alone Jesus will enter their heart.
You don't even believe in faith alone. Cause if you did you would simply say amen to what I am saying.

Your saying I have to do something, that is not faith alone.

 

Not really. I am trying to distinguish between faith through which one is saved and the faith that we normally describe as our walk with the Lord.

Paul often focuses on the former, and we have a good example in James of the latter.

Paul also speaks of works concerning our daily conversation, and lists those things which show we are not of the faith. John too lists those things which evidence faith is fraudulent.

In regards to you, it has centered primarily on Scripture. I addressed your assertions, did I not? You say they "didn't have the Bible as we do today," and that is true, but, they did have the Word of God that was available, and we see it called Scripture, and we see Christ and men refer and defer to it.

Required, no, because we do not maintain our salvation through works. An expected result for one indwelt of God...yes.


Ezekiel 36:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


But again, these "works" are they which we are created in Christ Jesus unto, rather than by.

You might think yourself clever, but your reverse psychology, though humorous, fails to distinguish between saving faith and how one is saved, and the faith that grows in us as we better understand God's will for our lives. Loving our neighbor is a result of salvation, and has nothing to do with maintaining it, as our works-based brethren believe.

A for effort, though, lol.

Actually that is "Let go and let God," lol, not faith.

Faith is not divorced from obedience, my friend. Unbelief is closely associated with disobedience. This was true of man in the beginning, it was true of Israel, it is true of the lost through all Ages.

It is true God will save despite my efforts, lol. But that doesn't nullify direct commands we see given the Church in Scripture.

Now one of the differences we see in groups is what "revelation" they consider authoritative. Of course you already know this, so it is easy enough to understand the concept of "new revelation." New revelation is that which is found outside of Scripture, and it is, by these groups, considered authoritative. We see this in groups such as Catholics, Charismatics, and Cults. If they say "God told me" it is identical to a "Thus saith the Lord" in Scripture. A few "new revelations" I might consider to stand out are the practice of giving money for the remission of sins, that God was once a man, of that Satan and Christ are spirit brothers.

Can we find these things in Scripture?

Not at all. And that is how false doctrine thrives, it gives priority to doctrines that are not only not found in Scripture, but are spoken against.

It is true that Christ enters the heart when faith in Him is expressed, but, when one is saved, they enter into that relationship through which faith grows according to their understanding. When I was saved I knew Christ had saved me, but that didn't mean that my sin didn't bring about doubt. At this point in my walk, I know without doubt that I am saved, and this confidence I owe to that which is written, that which God has spoken, which is recorded in the Word of God.

How could I say amen to something so foreign to Biblical teaching? Scripture exhorts to good works, and to study of Scripture. You are denying these, even though you think you are being clever.

Again, my focal point is that there is a need to distinguish between positional sanctification (which deals with being saved) and progressive sanctification (which is the process through which those who are saved are cleansed of sin through relationship with God Who is training up His children in the way they should go.

While salvation is by grace through faith alone, and the Eternal Destiny of the Believer secure, that does not nullify our responsibility as believers, which is not presented as a "let go let God" mentality in a believer. Paul did not "just have faith" that the peoples he went to to preach the Gospel to would be saved and he could simply sit back and let God work, because he had a mandate from God to go and preach the Gospel. While not all believers will be given gifts that effect the Great Commission, all of us, in some way, can contribute to that priority of conscience.

I'm not saying it, lol, Scripture is. But, this is not in a salvific context, it is in a context of progressive sanctification. There is a difference between being saved by grace through faith alone, and an empty, hollow profession of faith that says one can ignore God and His Word. That is precisely the error James addresses.

We are not saved by works, that is made very clear in Scripture. But, when we are saved, the inevitable result is that God will work in us, and through us.


God bless.

 

Darrell, why do you suppose a need to advise me of anything?

It almost sounds like you are trying to be of help.

It almost sounds like I ought to be doing something for my salvation's sake.


See If I believe in faith alone. I wouldn't even talk to you. I talk to Jesus. Hey, Jesus, that Darrell fellah.......hook him up....thanks, Amen.

That's it! That, is FAITH ALONE. That is walking the walk to what you claim.

 

"Progressive sanctification", what is that all about? I thought you folks preached that we didn't have to do anything but just believe and one is saved. Come on, get your story straight.

 

Sanctification is a one time event, yet it is also a life long occurrence in the life of the believer.

 

Well, first and foremost this is a Christian Doctrinal Discussion and Debate Forum, so lighten up, eh? lol

Secondly, there is no question that you need advisement, as having had a number of conversations with you I am compelled to discuss what I see as error on your part.

Lastly, while it might offend you that someone disagrees with you, you should consider that my own participation in this conversation is no different than yours, so, pot, give the kettle a little slack.

Believe it or not, that is the singular motivation in all of the discussions I am in, and I do not always interact with people the same way in an attempt to help them. In doing so, this also helps me.

On the contrary, in view is you doing something...in your salvation.

Again, you are still merging salvation itself with the walk we have after we are saved. So we can say "I am saved by faith alone" and still understand that our salvation is not a matter of faith alone, there is much more that is relevant after we are saved.

When you are placed in Christ that is a one-time event never repeated, never lost. But, after you are in Christ, as a new creature (born again and indwelt by God), you then begin the new life. In that life you will either learn of God's will and grow, coming into obedience to that will, or you will flounder and remain a babe, performing as a believer those things we expect from babes. Key to growth is first knowing God's will, and if you are not in the Word of God...you can't possibly know His will.

Most will learn of God's will from their Pastors, Priests, or whatever leadership they have come under. This is a slow process, at least, slower than the that which the believer who has an interest to understand better will progress.

So why ask me what I'm doing, lol. You understand.

And I talk to you specifically because you do not believe in salvation by Faith Alone, and the reason for this is because you do not understand the difference between positional sanctification and progressive sanctification. The former is by Faith Alone, whereas the latter involves ourselves in regards to our walk in Christ. The former determines the condition of the believers eternal destiny, the latter determines the believers level of growth, and does not change concerning our eternal destiny.

And what did He tell you, Utilyan?

Be honest.

No, that is "Let go and Let God."

It is a denial of the responsibility we are clearly given as believers. An example might be the matter of drunkenness. How does faith alone impact a command not to be drunken? Can we say, "Well, I have faith that God will overlook me getting drunk"? Can we say, "Well, by faith alone I think I can hate my neighbor, desire his wife, and steal his garden tools"?

You create a contradiction to the will of God and it is simply a matter of understanding that when we are saved, we are sanctified by Christ, set apart unto Him, and that is a result of faith alone on our parts. Perhaps we might illustrate this in this way: you want to go on a cruise, so you book passage, and have your ticket available.

When are you a passenger?

Not until you get on the ship, right?

Now, when you do actually get on the ship, as a passenger, you have liberty to enjoy the benefits the cruise offers. You go into the dining room, and when the waiter arrives, you tell him, "Here's my ticket, I'm a passenger, bring me food." Does the waiter need to find out if you're a passenger? Isn't it kind of obvious you are, seeing you are in the middle of the ocean aboard the ship?

So too, when one becomes a Christian, it is a done deal. But, what you do as a Christian is not much different than what you do as a passenger on the ship. You could stick your head in the punchbowl to drink, and that doesn't change the fact you are a passenger. But is that the right thing to do? You can ignore God's instruction also, as a Christian, but is that the right thing to do?

And just to bring this back to topic, the only way to embrace Purgatory is to ignore what Scripture makes absolutely clear: we are cleansed by the Blood of Christ...Alone. We do not suffer punishment for sins forgiven by His Sacrifice after we physically die. This would nullify the many teachings that His Sacrifice was sufficient for all of our sin, past, present, and future.

And that, my friend, is something you can only come to understand in your progressive sanctification. And when you do come to understand the Sufficiency of Christ, then you too will acknowledge Sola Fide as not only Biblical, but something by which your faith is strengthened by.


God bless.

 

Here is an example of the difference between positional and progressive sanctification, sanctification having elements of "making something holy through the setting apart of that person or object:"


Positional Sanctification:


Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)


10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



The words "for all" are insertion into the text, and though they do not really change what the Writer states, it must be understood that v.10 states we are sanctified once, meaning that it is a onetime event...as contrasted with the sanctification accomplished through Levitical Service.

Secondly, v.14 makes it clear that those who are sanctified through the offering of Christ are made "perfect" forever. If you study Hebrews 9-10 you will see that the context deals with the shadow/type/figure/parable of the Covenant of Law as opposed to the completion (perfection) Christ brought. Here, in this quote, is the clearest statement in Scripture, in my view, of Eternal Security. We see the contrast of remission of sins gained by the Priests of the Law in v.11, which is incomplete, hence it was on a daily basis repeated. And the Writer has already set forth the context we understand this by:


Hebrews 10:1-4

King James Version (KJV)


1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


What he is saying is that the Law could not take away sin/s, but Christ takes them away forever for those who are sanctified by His Sacrifice.

That is positional sanctification, and that is the position those who are forgiven in Christ stand in. Now if He has forgiven us forever, how then can some teach that there is another means of being cleansed of sins that comes after this?

That is very simple, they confuse the teachings of progressive sanctification, which do not deal in the eternal standing we have as sons/children of GOd, but deals with or temporal existence.

James is a good example of that.


Progressive Sanctification:


James 2

King James Version (KJV)

1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;

3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?


Now where is "respect of persons" relevant? Before God? Or men?

Is Eternal Salvation gained, or kept...because we visit orphans and widows?

James is dealing with the temporal aspect of our walk in Christ, and instructing them...don't do these things. This impacts our interaction with each other, not our interaction with God, which is relationship on a spiritual basis, not a temporal one.

Note in the following that in view is not a matter of faith in Christ, but interaction with others:


14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,


16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?


17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


In view is the profession of faith before other men, for this is where one would have the opportunity to make a hollow claim of being "religious," yet their works are as empty as their words.

Can one gain or maintain Eternal Salvation by giving clothes to the naked and cold, or giving food to the hungry? If that is so, then there are many atheists who run organizations that do those very things who have faith, right?

Right?

This is progressive sanctification, which has to do with our temporal standing, rather than our eternal standing. Eternal Salvation is gained in one way only, and that is through men being reconciled to God and indwelt by God, Who is the Source of Eternal Life. Eternal Life is not a substance poured into men from an heavenly container kept by God, but is the union of God and man by which His life is imparted unto us. Those who are not indwelt by God...do not have that life.

It's a false argument, and as I said before, has the false premise that "us folks" imply that progressive sanctification does not involve the efforts of the believer.

Again, understanding that Sola Fide is relevant to conversion and that it does not nullify the believer's responsibilities not to be disobedient. Scripture sets forth paths believers can take: they can grieve the Holy Spirit, or they can not. They can be filled with the Holy Spirit, or they can not be. They can be obedient to God, or not. That they are saved is not relevant, and obedience, or being filled, or grieving the Spirit does not change their positional sanctification, but it certainly impacts their progressive sanctification. A believer can be either walking closely with the Lord or they can be quenching His attempts to help them grow.

But it doesn't change whether they have been born again or not.

The wages of sin is still death for even the Born Again Christian, because God can decide to end the physical life of the believer who sins. Ananias and Sapphira are good examples of that. Paul wrote many were sick, and some had died because they partook of Communion unworthily.

And all of that is irrelevant to Sola Fide, which again has to do with how we are saved, not with how we walk in that salvation.

Understand this and you too will embrace Sola Fide.

It's not our story, it's Christ's, and until you learn to properly contextualize Scripture you will continue to deny the very thing which saved you. When you were saved...did you contribute to Christ dying in your place? Were you there? Did God accept His death...and yours...for the payment of the sin debt?

When you were saved, did you reach into eternity, grab the Holy Ghost, and reconcile yourself to God, bringing yourself into union with Him?

When you were saved, did you understand the spiritual things of God, which having at the top of the list is the Gospel whereby you were saved? If you think you did, then you deny clear Scripture that makes it clear...you did not.

No, my friend, you were enlightened to your condition by the Spirit of God, and when that happened, you recognized you were destined for Hell. You recognized that Christ died for you that you would not have to incur the penalty that your sin so readily deserved.

You did not save yourself, and you do not maintain your salvation through your works. You have the choice to obey God, or not. It was true in the Old Testament, it is true for you and I today as Christians...the that sinneth shall die. Not "the spirit that sinneth shall die," but the soul, the person...that sins shall die. Just as true for Christians as unbelievers today.

And the thought that there is sin that was not covered by the death of Christ, and has to be "cleansed" in purgatory defies the Sufficiency of Christ's Death. He said "It is finished," whereas the Doctrine of Purgatory say "Not quite."

When you understand the magnitude of Christ's death in your place, then your faith will take on an understanding whereby you can begin to trust Christ in a way you have never done before.

That is the "straight story," my friend, and it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


God bless.

 

the Bible teaches that we are istantlt justified by God when Jesus is received as the Lord, so we are RIGHT THEN just as acceptable to God as jesus was/is to Him, and even that while we are still yet sinners!

Then after salvation, we are intended to keep maturing/growing up into the image of Jesus...

Church of Rome reverses that, as they hated Luther for holding to God declaring us saints while still sinners, but that is because we have IMPUTED the rightousness of Christ by God towards us, NOT inused with it by God!

 

Amen!
Big problem with rome is that they insist that a sinner must get to the state of being actually sauctify enough, to get 'good enough", that God can credit them for being merit in and by themselves enough to warrent getting saved....

Backwards Gospel, but then again, they hated luther views that he was seen by God as being just and a saint, while yet also a sinner!

 

No, not works.
Here is what the scripture say:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Verse 10 indicates that the works follow salvation. The Christian or believer is created in Christ unto good works. His works are not good works "out of Christ," but rather filthy rags in the sight of God (Isa.64:6), and therefore cannot be a part of salvation.

Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
Any other variation of that message is heresy.

Paul said: To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He never got off the bus at Purgatory. There is no such place. It is a vain man's imagination.

 

In the Catholic church view on salvation however, they confuse the twin doctrines, and would have a sinner get 'good enough" by co operating with God in order to have God able to actually declare him to be right enough to merit gift of salvation...

What did the death of Jesus actually acomplish foir them in their system, for at best ot bought them a probationary period of time, and maybe not even heaven in the end!