Christ's Subsitutionary Sacrifice

[SovereignGrace]

Sanctification is via faith...both sides of the debate agree with this. Now, where does this faith come from? If ppl say it comes from them, then we have ran into a YUUUUUUUUUUGE problem. If one's innate faith justifies them, then we need to cross out Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[Galatians 3:8] And also Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.[Romans 8:33] And then we'd need to take some whiteout and blot out He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.[Romans 4:25] In all of these verses, I can not find where man was active in being justified. I can see man be acted upon, but not active. Look closely at Romans 4:25...and was raised to life for our justification. If Christ had not risen, we could not be justified, regardless how much innate faith one has/had. When Christ rose again, He rose again for His elect, His sheep, His chosen, His bride. Everything Christ did, He did in our stead. He lived a sinless, perfect life, He died and was buried, and rose again, and every whit of it He did for us, and we now have that imputed/credited/accounted unto us. None of the righteousness we have was possible via our faith. It...faith...is a gift of God via the Spirit that regenerates the dead in transgressions and sins sinner.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Finally SG, scripture does not say nor suggest our faith in the Truth was instilled through "irresistible grace."

I think you'll find it does. Ephesians 2:8.

God would not need to credit such a "gift" as righteousness.

We have no righteousness of our own (Philippians 3:8-9), so God gives us faith and credits that as righteousness.

Thus the gift is not our faith, the gift is God crediting our worthless faith as righteousness. Romans 4:4-5/24

Our faith is actually more precious than gold (1 Peter 1:7), and God tests our faith (Proverbs 17:3) so that we ourselves may know that it is genuine and also because it produces perseverance (James 1:3).

Although every part of salvation is of grace, it is not true that we are passively transferred into Christ. We are instructed to 'strive' and be 'violent' to enter salvation (Luke 13:24; cf. Matthew 11:12). When God begins to regenerate a sinner, he lays hold of Christ like a drowning man.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sanctification is via faith...both sides of the debate agree with this. Now, where does this faith come from? If ppl say it comes from them, then we have ran into a YUUUUUUUUUUGE problem. If one's innate faith justifies them, then we need to cross out Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[Galatians 3:8] And also Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.[Romans 8:33] And then we'd need to take some whiteout and blot out He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.[Romans 4:25] In all of these verses, I can not find where man was active in being justified. I can see man be acted upon, but not active. Look closely at Romans 4:25...and was raised to life for our justification. If Christ had not risen, we could not be justified, regardless how much innate faith one has/had. When Christ rose again, He rose again for His elect, His sheep, His chosen, His bride. Everything Christ did, He did in our stead. He lived a sinless, perfect life, He died and was buried, and rose again, and every whit of it He did for us, and we now have that imputed/credited/accounted unto us. None of the righteousness we have was possible via our faith. It...faith...is a gift of God via the Spirit that regenerates the dead in transgressions and sins sinner.

I made a faux pas...justification is via faith.

#oopsy

 

[Van]

Van rejects that faith is a gift from God towards his elect unto salvation in Jesus, and he also rejects the truth of God first choosing us, and due to that , we will then choose Him!
He bases it all upon the Lord seeing that we will make the right decision to accept Jesus and get saved by Him then!

This description of my supposed views is false, misleading and malicious. Pay to attention to how Y1 describes my views unless supported by a quote.

 

[Van]

So are all sinners placed now by God under the new Covenant, or is that reserved for just those who are now saved?

And what is the basis of salvation for you, the faith of a person, or the Cross of Christ?
And if you can claim that you were the reason that you chose to believe apart from any working of God in your life, would that not mean that God looked at you as the primary reason you were saved?

Yet another obfuscation, adulterating the discussion.

1) All of sinful humanity, all sinners, have been put under the new Covenant in His blood, as Christ is the propitiation for the whole world.

2) When God transfers a person into Christ, they are saved, positionally sanctified. In Christ = saved; not in Christ = not saved.

3) Without God's revelatory grace, sinners would not know who to trust in for salvation.

4) Y1 denies that God credits our faith as righteousness. God's word is crystal. Romans 4:4-5/24.

 

[Van]

Martin,
1) No need to discuss the meaning of propitiation for the whole world. Your mind has been made up.
2) The implication I believe Christ is not our Savior demonstrates obfuscation and absurdity.
3) Propitiation is a noun, not a verb, Martin.
4) Again propitiation = means of salvation, redemption = act of salvation, and reconciliation = result of salvation.
5) John 3:16, everyone believing into Christ will not perish but have eternal life.
6) More obfuscation as I have said it is God who decides who has called upon the name of the Lord.
7) Christ's suffering and death is sufficient to propitiate all mankind. To make salvation available to all is not to suffer in vain.
8) Come to Christ in that context refers to a change in location, otherwise they would not be in Christ for Christ to cast out, which He promised not to do.
9) If a person has been given to Christ, they are redeemed.
10) Of course the God does not second guess who He puts into Christ based on crediting their faith as righteousness.
11) Justification, the washing of regeneration occurs after a person is transferred into Christ.
12) Romans 5:19 says those in Christ are made, made, made, MADE righteous.
13) Adoption is the redemption of our body, Romans 8:23
14) Positional sanctification is one of three aspects of salvation.
15) Ephesians 1:4 does not say God chose us to be put in Him, nor does it say God chose us and put us in Him. And finally, it does not say God chose us individually in Him before creation.
16) Those whose faith God credited as righteousness and were placed in Christ before Paul was include Andronicus and Junia. No one was placed in Christ until God credited their faith as righteousness.
17) If a person has been placed in Christ, they are united with Christ and are one Spirit with Him.
18) Our old self was crucified after we were enslaved to sin, thus this occurs when we are placed in Christ.

Bottom line, Christ's Subsitutionary Sacrifice purchased the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.

17) No one was chosen individually for salvation except through faith in the truth.

 

[Van]

Hi SG, our faith is worthless because all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags to God. (Isaiah 64:6)
But I am very happy for you to be actually studying Romans.
Do not think Romans 4:4-5/24 says Abraham was counted/credited as righteous, his faith was credited as righteousness.

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, but that does not preclude people trusting in Christ before they were indwelt.
Faith is one of the gifts of the Spirit, but that does not preclude people trusting in Christ before they were indwelt.

No Old Testament saint, including Abraham was born anew before Christ died. None, zip, nada.
Regeneration, being made alive together with Christ, occurs when we are placed spiritually into Christ.
We are saved by grace through faith, thus our faith provides our access to God's saving grace, Romans 5:2.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The word 'covenant' is another word for 'marriage'. Sinners who die in their sins were never under the New Covenant. Those who are cast into hell were never under that New Covenant.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So, Abraham was saved but never had a birth of the Spirit of God? Srsly?

 

[Darrell C]

So, Abraham was saved but never had a birth of the Spirit of God? Srsly?

Yep.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

So, Abraham was saved but never had a birth of the Spirit of God? Srsly?

In Abraham's day, the ministry of the Spirit was the same as it was in the Day that Christ taught this:


John 14:15-18

King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


It was an external ministry unlike the one which would begin when the Spirit is sent. The living waters here...


John 7:38-39

King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


...is the same eternal life taught He had come when He spoke of it in terms of the True Bread (Himself) as opposed to the physical provision of the Old Teastmant (physical bread for physical sustenance, manna) in John 6.

We see above the Spirit is not yet given, and correlating to Christ's teaching above that cannot be imposed prior to Christ being glorified.

This is the same Promise in view here:


Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


One cannot be born again apart from having the Spirit sent, Who is the source of Eternal Life. But, that does not mean one cannot be saved from the Eternal Perspective of God, even though he does not live in the Age where a particular dispensation begins.

We see the point in time in which men are born from above (also called born of the Spirit, and born again, and regeneration) here:


John 1:11-13

King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


It cannot be imposed prior to the Coming of Christ. He didn't do that, and there is no reason we should either.


So yes, Abraham could be said to be "saved" in the sense that he was justified, just as all the Old Testament Saints listed in Hebrews 11 were. However, what they were not were recipients of the realization of the Promises of God:


Hebrews 11:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40

King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


They received the promises, but they did not receive the Promises, lol.

They were not made perfect, but, when, in this Age, we are saved, we receive of the Spirit that was only promised to them. The external ministry of the Spirit still continues, but that is to be distinguished from the Eternal Indwelling of God in believers in this Age.


God bless.

 

[JonC]

The word 'covenant' is another word for 'marriage'. Sinners who die in their sins were never under the New Covenant. Those who are cast into hell were never under that New Covenant.

While I agree that marriage is a covenant, I do not know that we can correctly say that "covenant" is another word for "marriage".

 

[SovereignGrace]

While I agree that marriage is a covenant, I do not know that we can correctly say that "covenant" is another word for "marriage".

Well, we are the Lamb's bride. To be a bride, we had to have a Husband. To be Husband and bride/wife, there has to be a marriage. We are also in a covenant with God. I think it is safe to say 'covenant' & 'marriage' are compatible words that express the same meaning.

I was showing Van that not everybody today is under the New Covenant. Those in the New Covenant God does not hold their sins ever again against them. See Jeremiah 31:31-33 and also Hebrews 10:16 & Hebrews 8:10.

 

[JonC]

Well, we are the Lamb's bride. To be a bride, we had to have a Husband. To be Husband and bride/wife, there has to be a marriage. We are also in a covenant with God. I think it is safe to say 'covenant' & 'marriage' are compatible words that express the same meaning.

I was showing Van that not everybody today is under the New Covenant. Those in the New Covenant God does not hold their sins ever again against them. See Jeremiah 31:31-33 and also Hebrews 10:16 & Hebrews 8:10.

I understand your neanibg, brother. I was just pointing out that covenant is a bit broader (men entered into covenants with each other as well, without it being a marriage).

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well, aren't all marriages(man and woman) a covenant betwixt two ppl? So, all marriages are covenants, but not all covenants are marriages.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Here is one meaning of marriage from www.dictionary.com

a formal agreement between two companies or enterprises to combine operations, resources, etc., for mutual benefit; merger.

So, marriage is a covenant, that even extends to relationships of platonic means.

 

[JonC]

Here is one meaning of marriage from www.dictionary.com

a formal agreement between two companies or enterprises to combine operations, resources, etc., for mutual benefit; merger.

So, marriage is a covenant, that even extends to relationships of platonic means.

I agree that marriage is a covenant. I disagree the words are interchangeable without risking a loss of meaning (eg, I wouldn't think it correct to say the Church is God's business partner via merger). But we can speak of the relationship between Christ and the Church as a marriage covenent (which is more than a contractual agreement) and also a general covenant (promises and conditions) as Scripture uses both (the Church is the Bride, the "wedding supper"; the Promise, God's covenant with Abraham, Paul speaking on legal terms, etc.).

I believe both covenant as a contractual binding agreement and covenant as a more intimate and personal marriage to be important terms, but we cannot presuppose our English dictionaries into the meanings and force "covenant" to mean "marriage" because quite simply it often does not. But marriage is always a covenant.

 

[Van]

No need to sidetrack discussion pretending the Old Covenant and the New Covenant refers to marriage. LOL Next, we get the absurd argument that being under the New Covenant means we have met its conditionals. LOL. Anyone who rejects Christ does not have any other Covenant to fall back on, either meet the conditionals of the New Covenant, or join those in Hades.

 

[Van]

Hi SG, since you have been studying Romans for 6 months I am sure you can provide the reference that says Abraham was saved before He was made perfect. Looking forward to your studied reply.

And I have a riddle for you SG. Jesus arose from the tomb on the third day. If you believe no one was justified before the third day, how did the thief get to Paradise on day one? Just asking.

Could not being raise "for our justification" have the meaning that the risen Christ provides a basis for our faith that He is the way, the truth and the life. Therefore the resurrection strengthens our faith upon which is the basis for our justification when we are transferred into Christ. Just saying...

 

[Yeshua1]

Hi SG, since you have been studying Romans for 6 months I am sure you can provide the reference that says Abraham was saved before He was made perfect. Looking forward to your studied reply.

And I have a riddle for you SG. Jesus arose from the tomb on the third day. If you believe no one was justified before the third day, how did the thief get to Paradise on day one? Just asking.

Could not being raise "for our justification" have the meaning that the risen Christ provides a basis for our faith that He is the way, the truth and the life. Therefore the resurrection strengthens our faith upon which is the basis for our justification when we are transferred into Christ. Just saying...

So you are saying that all sinners are brought by God under the new Covenant?

And do you base the assurance of salvation upon your faith, or upon the One hom you placed your faith into?

just seems that you place too high a premium on what you did to get saved...