Featured Paradise Purgatory - the "other" option

"Fr. John Echert, S.S.L.Father Echert is a priest of the Archdiocese of St. Paul-Minneapolis, ordained in 1987. He is a member of the faculty of The Saint Paul Seminary in Minnesota and teaches Sacred Scripture. He is also an adjunt faculty member of the University of St. Thomas. Father Echert has the Licentiate in Sacred Scripture (S.S.L.) degree from the Pontifical Biblical Institute, Rome with additional graduate studies at the Ecole Biblique, Jerusalem. He is also a military chaplain in the U.S. Air Force Reserve.

Father Echert writes a column on the monthly readings of the Mass for "The Catholic Servant," a monthly publication for Evangelization, Catechesis and Apologetics available on the internet at www.catholicservant.org ."

https://www.ewtn.com/faith/QA/expertslist.htm


And of course he quotes the ECFs you so love the quote

from - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
Purgatorial FIRE
.... In the West the belief in the existence of real fire is common. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37, no. 3) speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P.L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory, St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God, there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta". How this fire affects the souls of the departed the Doctors do not know, and in such matters it is well to heed the warning of the Council of Trent when it commands the bishops "to exclude from their preaching difficult and subtle questions which tend not to edification', and from the discussion of which there is no increase either in piety or devotion" (Sess. XXV, "De Purgatorio").

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If you can prove I am using sources that are anti-Catholic or that are not-known to Catholics or that have been discredited by the RCC - please show the data.

The only ones I know of that agree with those Catholic positions quoted above - are Catholics.

A reasonable conclusion

Certainly the protesting trying-to-reform-the-RCC catholics thought that at one time until they found out that the Bible is the work of God - and not the RCC.

And then you read it??

Certainly we can all hope that were true.

And would they get the "papal imprimatur" for such a conclusion???

Catholic teaching gets promoted by Catholic teachers and they themselves need the papal Imprimatur for books that they write if they want cloistered closed-minded Catholics to read it.

The easy-to-read clear-as-day statements that we find in places like EWTN, RC encyclopedia, and Baltimore Catechism -- do not magically turn into "hard-to-read" just because someone tries out a Jedi mind-trick on Baptist Board.

You already knew that right??

And does it have the papal "imprimatur"???

Logical fallacy that obvious statements are too complicated to understand - is transparently flawed on the surface of it.

 

1. Jesus Christ was Seventh-day Adventist for all intents and purposes.
2. The Bible is authored by the Holy Spirit - not the late-comer RCC centuries later.
3. God almighty is the final authority. - and He claims the Bible

I am a bible believing Christian. That means I actually believe what it says and I don't have to make up what it says.


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That is a fun game sir -- now back to the topic of the thread

 

Your papal pronouncement "noted" -- I am looking for actual Bible facts.

 

Purgatory is not about "being unsaved again". Everyone in Purgatory goes to heaven. Yet purgatory is still a man-made-tradition

 

Mark 7:6-13 upholds the "Word of God", "The Commandment of God", "Moses said" as all being the same things - and the "traditions of man" as being opposed to it.

Is this supposed to be confusing?

Ephesians 6:2
Revelation 14:12
James 2:11-12
1 Corinthians 7:19
Isaiah 66:23
Mark 2:27

The point remains.

 

You can't debate another view - by circular reasoning - by assuming your own definition of terms into their statement of faith. You have to use agreed upon terms to debate a point. In their case they will always come back on the subject of "Saved" with the fact that they define all those in purgatory as "Saved" and thus your "well you say people become unsaved in purgatory and that can't be true because of such-and-such" etc - falls flat for them since it is not what they say at all.

 

Agreed. I think that is a clear dividing line between the two sides.

 

So that apparently ends the discussion about whether Purgatory means losing salvation to those who promote that doctrine. They argue that this is what is happening to the "Saved" not the wicked lost.

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now begins an entirely Different subject - posted as if a response to the above topic

This is the argument that all Catholics go to hell and are lost unless they quit being catholic

I kept responding to the already-refuted idea previously posted that somehow purgatory is a doctrine saying that the saved get unsaved in purgatory. Should have responded to that entirely new - direction taken in DHK's post about all Catholics going to hell.

So " no saved people in purgatory" if the Catholic doctrine is wrong? -- more like - 'no purgatory at all'.

This is more of your -- no Catholics going to heaven idea.

While I agree that the doctrine is in error - I do not agree that no Catholics will be in heaven. (And by that I am not simply referring to "Former Catholics" going to heaven - like Calvin, or Luther)

 

1. you can't turn every topic into your own personal war against the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - The Bible on this topic - C.H. Spurgeon, "the Westminster Confession of Faith", R.C. Sproul, D.L. Moody -- all of whom strongly support the Isaiah 66:23 and Mark 2:27 Bible doctrine on the TEN Commandments (all ten) still applicable to all mankind. 1 Corinthians 7:19 Ephesians 6:2.

2. Start a topic of your own when you want to attack that part of the Bible and those Bible scholars -- and I will participate in it.

... Am starting that thread for you -

 

Aside from "Quoting you" as proof of that statement - do you have a Bible text for it?

Not because I agree with Catholic doctrine - (one or two Catholics know that SDA doctrine does not approve of certain RCC doctrines)

 

Certainly I have argued that some doctrines in the RCC are in fact error - purgatory being and example of one of them.

They oppose the sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and tradition - and the Jewish leaders of Christ's day appear to have rejected that sola-scriptura-testing idea as we see in Mark 7:6-13.

So also may it be argued that many Jews existed at the time of the Christian church that did not accept Christ as the Messiah. But Paul says Timothy was saved - even before becoming a Christian - as Christ also said about various people around him... and as we see in Hebrews 11 regarding the saints of the OT that did not know about the Carpenter from Nazareth that would come into being one day - the incarnate Son of God. My affirmation is not that doctrinal error is salvific. Rather my claim is that they are saved in spite of doctrinal error -- at least some are saved.

And so some are saved in all denominations - no matter that the denomination has doctrinal error. "To him that knows to do right - and does it not -- to him it is sin". James 4:17 Error does not lead to salvation - but the Holy Spirit does.

Satan can use error to blind the people to the truth - 2 Cor 4:4 - so that when they hear Gospel truth - they will be inclined to reject it.