Featured Has dispensationalism contributed to mistaken worldviews, or is it the truth ?

How do you come to that conclusion? You said it, not me.

No I don't when its done in a comparative and metaphorical way as Paul has done, otherwise - yes, redeemed Israel and the church are distinct from each other - not separate, both the children of God of different ages who will inhabit the city "not built with hands" in the unforetold future.
They are distinct in history and in local goverment.

We go to church on the first day of the week and not to the synagogue on the last day of the week.
We baptize, not circumcise.

3 for we are the circumcision [the Israel of God], who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

I am glad you put "the Israel of God" in brackets.
Again "circumcision" is a metaphor for the rebirth.

If Gentile Christians are no longer considered to be Gentiles what are they?

The children of God.

HankD

 

Jews and Gerbils both got saved?

 

That's odd indeed.

HankD

 

Then clarify please:

16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

Who is Paul referring to by 'the Israel of God'?

 

Was Christ being 'metaphorical' here when He referred to this Israelite as an 'Israelite indeed'?:

47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Jn 1

Was Paul being metaphorical here when he defined the true Jew?:

29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

Or are you going to tell me that true Jews are those that have Abraham's DNA?

 

No. Paul clearly defines who the circumcision is here. Absolutely no mention of 'the rebirth'.

More dispy chop suey.

 

Look K I could answer all your particular questions but I won't.

I would rather do it in a more general way - The issue with you and I is with our separate views of Paul's literary style.

Yes The Spirit of God inspired him, however the Spirit of God used the persona of the all who were chosen to pen the scripture. Paul liked using crossover metaphors for comparisons. This is one of them.

IMO The underlying spiritual message is that redeemed Israel and the church are not separate but distinct from one another sharing many values but different in others yet both institutions represented the kingdom of God on earth both citizen re-borns were the children of God.

Neither one of us will be satisfied with the back and forth banter and it might end badly and in fact is moving in that direction.

HankD

 

What you are describing here does not convince me that you know what covenant theology is. I don't have time right now to explain it all to you, but it is an entire system of theology that is not based on the covenants delineated in the Bible, but on two or three (depending on the theologian) covenants invented extra-Biblically. If you can get ahold of Berkhof's systematic theology you can find his version explained there.

Sayonara for now.

 

What you are asking me to do is read this guy's article, then respond to everything you ask me about him. I'm very sorry, but I simply don't have time right now to do that. I'm teaching a two-week block on History of Missions, and preparing to teach three difficult courses in a 9 week block (Greek 101, Eng. 101, Ch. History).

See you somewhere down the line.

 

I will answer this one point. The covenants of covenant theology are extra-Biblical (not necessarily un-Biblical) because (wait for it), they are delineated nowhere in the Bible.

 

References to the Covenant of Grace can be found in various parts of the Bible if one is prepared to look for them as the following examples will show:-

Luke 22:22. “And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined……” Determined where and by whom if not in the Covenant of Grace?

John 6:38-39. “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” Christ has been given a people and the task by the Father which He is determined to fulfil. What can this refer to if not the Covenant of Grace?

John 10:16. “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.” Not, “I will bring,” but, “I must bring.” Our Lord had been given a commission to fulfil.

John 10:17-18. “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” Where did Christ receive this command, the doing of which merited so well the Father’s love? In the Covenant of Grace, of course.

Phil 2:6-8 (my translation). ‘Who, being in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be held onto for His advantage, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.’ In the Covenant of Grace, our Lord gave up temporarily that equality with the Father that had existed from all eternity, and became the willing servant of Exodus 21:5-6 and Psalm 40:6-8 in order to rescue those who had been given to Him (John 17:2, 6 ).

Heb 2:13. ‘Here am I and the children whom God has given to Me.’ Given by the Father to the Son in the Covenant of Grace to be redeemed from sin and brought to heaven.

In Isaiah 42:6, Christ is described as the Covenant itself. He is, in His own Person and work, the very substance of it. In Mal 3:1, He is, ‘The Messenger of the Covenant’ because He came to proclaim it and make it known. In Heb 7:22, He is, ‘The Surety of a better covenant.’ Christ came as the representative of fallen Man, being engaged to fulfil the obligations incurred under the Covenant of Works. In Heb 9:15, He is, ‘The Mediator of the New Covenant’ since He has brought about legal satisfaction between God and man so that covenantal blessings are now imparted to those who had previously forfeited them, and He now stands between the two parties, advocating the cause of man to God (1John 2:1 ) and speaking a word of the comfort of God to the weary man (Isaiah 50:4 ).

 

Just an observation Martin: You mention the "Covenant of Grace" several times yet the word "grace" does not appear in any of these passages you give. Just remarking.

HankD

 

Hello Hank,
I tend to use the term 'Covenant of Grace' because I used to spend a lot of time over on the Puritan Board and that was the term they tended to use there because it is in the Westminster Confession and the 1689. If you prefer to call it the Everlasting Covenant (Hebrews 13:20) or anything else that takes your fancy, feel free.

'That which we call a rose would smell as sweet
By any other name.'

 

Aye, there's the rub. You have to search for such passages. In other words, you have to have a presupposition of a covenant of grace before you even begin your search. Every single passage you referenced depend on that presupposition, rather than strict exegesis. Not a single one of them teaches directly a covenant of grace.

Berkhof's definition: “The covenant of Grace may be defined as that gracious agreement between the offended God and the offending but elect sinner, in which God promises salvation through faith in Christ, and the sinner accepts this believingly, promising a life of faith and obedience” (Berkhof, p. 277; italics in original). None of the verses you quoted mention such an agreement in any way, shape or form. (And I realize that you apparently have your own definition of the covenant of grace that differs from Berkhof's.)

When does the sinner make such an agreement with God? Is there even such a covenant? Covenant theologians differ on all of this, some having 3 and some only having 2 covenants in their scheme.