1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Has anyone else ever just been unsure about Calvinism and Arminianism?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by StefanM, Aug 22, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 8 of 8
  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But you said it is only for believers. Therefore you limit the atonement. You limit it to believers only, and even then only human believers. You exclude unbelievers and Satan and his demons. If you exclude anyone, you limit the atonement to those not excluded.

    Simultaneously.

    It happens simultaneously.

    As one of my seminary professors used to say, "Simple questions for simple people."
     
    #141 TCassidy, Oct 5, 2016
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,371
    Likes Received:
    2,405
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Six Hour Warning

    This thread will be closed sometime after 9pm Pacific.
     
    #142 Squire Robertsson, Oct 5, 2016
    • Like Like x 1
  3. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    584
    Likes Received:
    70
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Good job of explaining your positon. Where we disagree is that I do not believe an unregenerate person has any spiritual ability apart from a prevenient work of God as described in the third article of the Remonstrants. But we can agree to disagree on this. I do believe that God is the initiator of salvation. In other words, we do not seek Him first, He seeks us first. I believe if we are seeking God in a true and genuine manner (not seeking a God of our own making), then that is evidence of God's drawing us to Himself.
     
    #143 glad4mercy, Oct 5, 2016
  4. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    584
    Likes Received:
    70
    Faith:
    Baptist
    a. I believe in Limited Atonement the way you have stated it, but that is not how it is defined by the majority of Calvinists I have talked to.

    b. If Sealing and Regeneration happen similtaneously, then regeneration follows saving faith, because according to Ephesians 1:13 sealing follows saving faith.

    here is my point in syllogism form

    a. Sealing and regeneration happen similtaneously.
    b. Sealing happens after saving faith. (believing) Ephesians 1:13
    c. Therefore regeneration happens after saving faith (believing)

    It is a sound argument because premise a is true (as admitted by you) premise b is true (by the assertion of Paul) and c (conclusion) logically and necessarily follows from the premises.

    Try to refute that argument.

    And since most Calvinists hold that all five points stand or fall together, that is a big problem for Calvinists

    Now I believe a person cannot exercise saving faith unless they are drawn to come to Christ, illuminated, convicted and convinced by the ministry of the Holy Spriit. But I do not define this prevenient work as regeneration, for the reason stated in the argument above.
     
    #144 glad4mercy, Oct 5, 2016
  5. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    584
    Likes Received:
    70
    Faith:
    Baptist
    a. I believe in Limited Atonement the way you have stated it, but that is not how it is defined by the majority of Calvinists I have talked to.

    b. If Sealing and Regeneration happen similtaneously, then regeneration follows saving faith, because according to Ephesians 1:13 sealing follows saving faith.

    here is my point in syllogism form

    a. Sealing and regeneration happen similtaneously.
    b. Sealing happens after saving faith. (believing) Ephesians 1:13
    c. Therefore regeneration happens after saving faith (believing)

    It is a sound argument because premise a is true (as admitted by you) premise b is true (by the assertion of Paul) and c (conclusion) logically and necessarily follows from the premises.

    Try to refute that argument.

    And since most Calvinists hold that all five points stand or fall together, that is a big problem for Calvinists

    Now I believe a person cannot exercise saving faith unless they are drawn to come to Christ, illuminated, convicted and convinced by the ministry of the Holy Spriit. But I do not define this prevenient work as regeneration, for the reason stated in the argument above.
     
    #145 glad4mercy, Oct 5, 2016
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What Calvinist states it any differently? The Atonement is described as "Sufficient for all, efficient only for the elect (those who believe)."

    It does? Where?

    Correct.

    Incorrect. Not sure where you are getting the "after." The verse reads "In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit." Looks simultaneous to me.

    After doing some version shopping I see that the KJV has "after" in that verse. That is an incorrect translation of ακουσαντες which is an aorist active participle. The Greek participle is well known to be non-temporal. See New Testament Greek for the Beginner by J. Gresham Machen (Professor of New Testament Greek at Westminster Theological Seminary, Philadelphia, PA) page viii.

    A false conclusion used as an a priori assumption leads to additional false conclusions.

    Yes. All stand. The Gospel will never fall.
     
    #146 TCassidy, Oct 5, 2016
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This thread is being closed, so if you would like to discuss our disagreement, please start a new thread.

    That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.”

    Referring to John 15:5, one must do nothing about what. Contextually the idea is we must be born anew in order to bear fruit. To claim this supports the inability to respond to God's revelation is bogus, in my opinion. Ask yourself if God credits our faith, as flawed as it might be, as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5, 23-24) how can it be claimed we cannot put our faith in God and Christ?
     
    #147 Van, Oct 5, 2016
  8. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    11,864
    Likes Received:
    1,098
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It would be welcome for Glad, who appears to be a classical Arminian, deal with semi Pelagianism.
     
    #148 rsr, Oct 5, 2016
  9. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,371
    Likes Received:
    2,405
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This thread is closed.
     
    #149 Squire Robertsson, Oct 5, 2016
Page 8 of 8
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...