Has anyone else ever just been unsure about Calvinism and Arminianism?

[TCassidy]

Nope, I do not believe in limited atonement, because the Bible does NOT TEACH IT.

But you said it is only for believers. Therefore you limit the atonement. You limit it to believers only, and even then only human believers. You exclude unbelievers and Satan and his demons. If you exclude anyone, you limit the atonement to those not excluded.

Are we sealed with the Holy Spirit before or after we believe?

Simultaneously.

Is it possible to be regenerate without being sealed by the Holy Spirit?

It happens simultaneously.

Simple yes or no questions.

As one of my seminary professors used to say, "Simple questions for simple people."

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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[glad4mercy]

Hi Glad4Mercy,

You said, "You did not mention that resistible vs irresistible grace. If you believe in resistible grace, that will make you a three point Arminian, if you believe in irresistible grace, you are a two point Calvinist."

Irresistible Grace is a necessary corollary of Total Spiritual Inability. The Calvinist view is that the Fall resulted in mankind being conceived in a state where they are unable to seek God or respond appropriately to the gospel. To overcome this supposed spiritual condition, each person must be altered by irresistible grace and compelled to "willingly" believe.

However, scripture teaches we are conceived with "limited" spiritual ability, we can, in the fallen state, understand spiritual milk, but are unable to understand spiritual meat.

Therefore, according to my understanding, we can respond to God's revelatory grace, such as the 2,3 and 4th soils of Matthew 13. The first soil was not conceived unable to respond due to the Fall, but became unable through the practice of sin. God's revelatory grace is resistible, we can leave it, or take it to varying degrees.

But to your point, I believe the fallen choose life or death, and thus I believe we are not compelled to life or to death. Since I believe in Limited Spiritual Ability, from conception, I see no need for the Arminian Prevenient Grace. So by my count I am back to a 2 pointer.

Good job of explaining your positon. Where we disagree is that I do not believe an unregenerate person has any spiritual ability apart from a prevenient work of God as described in the third article of the Remonstrants. But we can agree to disagree on this. I do believe that God is the initiator of salvation. In other words, we do not seek Him first, He seeks us first. I believe if we are seeking God in a true and genuine manner (not seeking a God of our own making), then that is evidence of God's drawing us to Himself.

 

[glad4mercy]

But you said it is only for believers. Therefore you limit the atonement. You limit it to believers only, and even then only human believers. You exclude unbelievers and Satan and his demons. If you exclude anyone, you limit the atonement to those not excluded.

Simultaneously.

It happens simultaneously.

As one of my seminary professors used to say, "Simple questions for simple people."

a. I believe in Limited Atonement the way you have stated it, but that is not how it is defined by the majority of Calvinists I have talked to.

b. If Sealing and Regeneration happen similtaneously, then regeneration follows saving faith, because according to Ephesians 1:13 sealing follows saving faith.

here is my point in syllogism form

a. Sealing and regeneration happen similtaneously.
b. Sealing happens after saving faith. (believing) Ephesians 1:13
c. Therefore regeneration happens after saving faith (believing)

It is a sound argument because premise a is true (as admitted by you) premise b is true (by the assertion of Paul) and c (conclusion) logically and necessarily follows from the premises.

Try to refute that argument.

And since most Calvinists hold that all five points stand or fall together, that is a big problem for Calvinists

Now I believe a person cannot exercise saving faith unless they are drawn to come to Christ, illuminated, convicted and convinced by the ministry of the Holy Spriit. But I do not define this prevenient work as regeneration, for the reason stated in the argument above.

 

[glad4mercy]

But you said it is only for believers. Therefore you limit the atonement. You limit it to believers only, and even then only human believers. You exclude unbelievers and Satan and his demons. If you exclude anyone, you limit the atonement to those not excluded.

Simultaneously.

It happens simultaneously.

As one of my seminary professors used to say, "Simple questions for simple people."

a. I believe in Limited Atonement the way you have stated it, but that is not how it is defined by the majority of Calvinists I have talked to.

b. If Sealing and Regeneration happen similtaneously, then regeneration follows saving faith, because according to Ephesians 1:13 sealing follows saving faith.

here is my point in syllogism form

a. Sealing and regeneration happen similtaneously.
b. Sealing happens after saving faith. (believing) Ephesians 1:13
c. Therefore regeneration happens after saving faith (believing)

It is a sound argument because premise a is true (as admitted by you) premise b is true (by the assertion of Paul) and c (conclusion) logically and necessarily follows from the premises.

Try to refute that argument.

And since most Calvinists hold that all five points stand or fall together, that is a big problem for Calvinists

Now I believe a person cannot exercise saving faith unless they are drawn to come to Christ, illuminated, convicted and convinced by the ministry of the Holy Spriit. But I do not define this prevenient work as regeneration, for the reason stated in the argument above.

 

[TCassidy]

I believe in Limited Atonement the way you have stated it, but that is not how it is defined by the majority of Calvinists I have talked to.

What Calvinist states it any differently? The Atonement is described as "Sufficient for all, efficient only for the elect (those who believe)."

If Sealing and Regeneration happen similtaneously, then regeneration follows saving faith, because according to Ephesians 1:13 sealing follows saving faith.

It does? Where?

Sealing and regeneration happen similtaneously.

Correct.

Sealing happens after saving faith. (believing) Ephesians 1:13

Incorrect. Not sure where you are getting the "after." The verse reads "In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit." Looks simultaneous to me.

After doing some version shopping I see that the KJV has "after" in that verse. That is an incorrect translation of ακουσαντες which is an aorist active participle. The Greek participle is well known to be non-temporal. See New Testament Greek for the Beginner by J. Gresham Machen (Professor of New Testament Greek at Westminster Theological Seminary, Philadelphia, PA) page viii.

Therefore regeneration happens after saving faith (believing)

A false conclusion used as an a priori assumption leads to additional false conclusions.

And since most Calvinists hold that all five points stand or fall together, that is a big problem for Calvinists

Yes. All stand. The Gospel will never fall.

 

[Van]

Good job of explaining your positon. Where we disagree is that I do not believe an unregenerate person has any spiritual ability apart from a prevenient work of God as described in the third article of the Remonstrants. But we can agree to disagree on this. I do believe that God is the initiator of salvation. In other words, we do not seek Him first, He seeks us first. I believe if we are seeking God in a true and genuine manner (not seeking a God of our own making), then that is evidence of God's drawing us to Himself.

This thread is being closed, so if you would like to discuss our disagreement, please start a new thread.

That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.”

Referring to John 15:5, one must do nothing about what. Contextually the idea is we must be born anew in order to bear fruit. To claim this supports the inability to respond to God's revelation is bogus, in my opinion. Ask yourself if God credits our faith, as flawed as it might be, as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5, 23-24) how can it be claimed we cannot put our faith in God and Christ?

 

[rsr]

It would be welcome for Glad, who appears to be a classical Arminian, deal with semi Pelagianism.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

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