Featured How many of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit still operate today?

I would love to. Please say something understandable.

Uh, well, no.

Uh, no. That is not what I said.

Actually, it is not.

Except that is not what I believe and not what I said. Do you just make this stuff up as you go along?

If they said that I would give them an "F"!

You mean like accusing me of "eisegesis" without any exegetical support?

 

I apologize if it seems to you that I am being insulting when I say that you are are reading into the passage. My intent is not to insult but to explain how I understand the verse.

When that which is complete comes, the partial will be set aside.

In one sentience - Paul is expounding on his statement that love never fails by pointing out the temporary nature of those gifts compared to the superiority if love.

 

No, not at all. You have insulted me throughout our dialogue here. But we both know (I hope) the other's position has support from biblical scholarship - we just disagree with the validity of the others support.

You think that I am ignoring something implied in "that which is perfect" and I think you are filling in a blank unnecessary. There is no need to become demeaning towards another for the disagreement

 

Of course. That is obvious. But the question remains, when (and we could also ask "why") will "that which is partial" go away, as Paul says it will?

 

You keep saying my position has no support, while at the same time assigning me a position I don't hold. How in the world can you disprove something when you don't even know what it is your are supposedly disproving?

 

We can ask that question, but I do not believe this is what Paul is addresing (I believe he is simply pointing to the temporary nature of those gifts to show the superiority of love).

 

Not at all, andI am sorry if it appeared that way. I thought your position was that these gifts were for the transition from the Old Covenant program to the New Covenant program, and that they ended as this transition concluded (I took to mean with the conclusion of the apostolic age). If. I misunderstood you then you have my apology.

Also, as I said earlier, I am confident that you have support for your interpretation.

 

Hey Hank.

I believe that we (as well as the audience of Hebrews) are in "these last days". And I do not believe that there will be additions to what has been revealed by the prophets and ultimately in Christ. I agree with your assessment of what we see as the modern exercise of tongues (and would add prophesy) as being fraudulent.

I doubt God uses these sign gifts today (especially in my culture). But I am by nature a doubter. I believe but God help my disbelief. I am just unwilling to justify my doubt that God used these things by denying the possibility. I understand your reasoning and agree to an extent. I agree enough to doubt, but not enough to denounce....if that makes sense.

 

That the spiritual gifts were given to ease the transition from the Old Testament economy to the New Testament economy. Some of the gifts were revelatory. Some of the gifts were confirmatory. Some of the gifts were humanitarian. But all were given for the same purpose, to ease the transition from the Old to the New.

And once the Old was gone and the New was mature the purpose for the gifts was fulfilled and thus they were no longer necessary.

Thanks for asking.

 

I believe it has reached maturity (nothing more needs to be added to the Covenantal revelation) but not fruition. There is yet to be a Great Consumation of this present age.

 

But that is not what you were saying in your earlier post. Here is how you replied:

1. Sign gifts never stood in place of Scripture.

2. In fact, the Scripture that validated the gospel for the earliest church had existed for over four centuries.

3. The gospel is proclaimed by the church.

4. It is nonsense to believe that Scripture validates the gospel to the lost who do not believe the Scripture.

5. The Sign Gifts plainly never stood in the place that Scripture now stands.

6. The church validates doctrine by Scripture.

7. But what validates the gospel to the world is the witness of the church.

The problem, John, is that were erecting straw man arguments which I never even mentioned. With the exception of #4 they are all non-sequiturs.

And #4 is just plain wrong. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." God has ordained preaching the word to the lost which He then uses to draw the as yet unbelieving elect unto Himself.

And #7 was incomplete. What was it the church was witnessing to? The Gospel, as you rightly say at the beginning of the statement, which is found where? Oh! Yes! In the New Testament!

 

Yes, I realize that I often respond to posts (this time it was your posting of the Hebrews passage) only to address the OP in general by expressing my views and understandings broadly. I apologize for any confusion my “working it out” online may have caused.

I appreciate the critique of my position. I realize that I am neither the most intelligent nor most articulate member of this forum (I suspect I am most often the least, certainly the lesser between the two of us) . So I count it an honor to receive feedback from you about my understanding. I struggle with insecurity, so trust me when I say that having to put up with my inept attempts of expression here is a blessing when compared to verbal communication. But I'm a "dime a dozen". I'm sure you've ran into enough of people like me as a professor. That said, if you need for me to clarify or have a question, please feel free to ask.

 

Now that's the right question!

The gifts of the Spirit were given for a three-fold purpose.

1. The Revelatory sign gifts wherein new Revelation was being given.

No longer needed as new Revelation is no longer being given.

2. The confirmatory sign gifts wherein the Apostles were confirmed to be equal to or even better than the prophets of the Old Testament.

No longer needed as there are no more Apostles to confirm.

3. The Humanitarian sign gifts. Given to help administer the new creation, the church, by ministering to the people.

No longer needed as people now have the New Testament to counsel and guide them, to comfort them, and to teach them. And the older, more mature saints have been trained in New Testament teachings and practice which was not available to the 1st century saints, so, no longer needed.

All have passed away. Just as 1 Corinthians 13 tells us. Especially that last verse. "But now faith, hope, and love remain—these three. The greatest of these is love."

Even when Paul was writing 1 Corinthians, new converts were no longer being given these spiritual gifts. And in chapter 14 he warns not to trouble the older saints who had been given such gifts, and to allow them to exercise them as led, but to bear in mind that as the senior, gifted, saints grew old and died, the gifts died with them as those gifts were no longer needed. They were only part of what we needed. Now we have all that we need to preach, teach, and encourage one another.

 

I understand the reasons that you come to this conclusion. At the same time, I side with Joel Beeke and D.A. Carson's interpretation that Paul is instead reflecting the eschatological aspects of love never failing by presenting a contrast between the nature of love and these gifts which will not extend beyond this age into the age to come where "all flesh will see the glory of the Lord".

While I agree with Beeke and Carson (and Gordon Fee regarding "prophesy" in this passage) it is not because I adopted their positions but instead was evaluating mine (I believe a new and unique interpretation is typically error). So I remain open to other interpretations, and will continue to consider your view here.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that by the time Paul wrote this letter to the church at Corinth these gifts had ceased (they were being practiced but were no longer given to new converts).

But Paul also seemed to encourage the exercise of tongues (wishing that all spoke in tongues) and even encouraged the congregation to earnestly desire the gift of prophesy. If Paul's point is that God has ceased giving these sign gifts, then why does Paul encourage his audience to seek them? Do you consider "prophesy" here to be one of the sign gifts? (I ask because Gordon Fee holds here it can only mean the sign gift of prophesy or a supernatural knowledge akin to Old Testament prophesy, while Wayne Grudem indicates it can also mean spontaneously proclaiming something the Holy Spirit has brought to mind).

Thanks.

 

Yes, as you said below.

Why would they not? The gifts are no longer being given but gifted men are still there practicing their gifts and will continue doing so until the completion of God's self-revelation of the New Testament.

Yes.