How many of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit still operate today?

[TCassidy]

Please understand me here,

I would love to. Please say something understandable.

You are reading into the text.

Uh, well, no.

It may be that “that which is perfect” refers to the New Covenant program.

Uh, no. That is not what I said.

But Paul is less specific here because exactly when the will cease is not his point.

Actually, it is not.

Where you are wrong is not necessarily in your opinion that tongues, knowledge, and prophesy ended when the New Covenant program was fully initiated.

Except that is not what I believe and not what I said. Do you just make this stuff up as you go along?

I doubt that, when you were a seminary professor, you would have let your students off so easy as to say "Paul says here that these things will end when the New Covenant program fully arrives".

If they said that I would give them an "F"!

I do take exception to insulting others who do not read into a text the same opinions that you hold.

You mean like accusing me of "eisegesis" without any exegetical support?

 

[JonC]

Another typical JonC "answer." Yada yada yada yada without saying anything.

You accuse others ( especially me) of "eisegesis" but when asked a simple question, you give your typical no answer answer.

Here it is again. Try real hard to answer the question this time.

What was Paul talking about when he said: 1 Corinthians 13:10 "but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with?"

Show your exegesis to support your answer.

This is very simple. Just a one sentence answer with your exegesis to support your answer.

Now focus. Try real hard. You can do it!

I apologize if it seems to you that I am being insulting when I say that you are are reading into the passage. My intent is not to insult but to explain how I understand the verse.

When that which is complete comes, the partial will be set aside.

In one sentience - Paul is expounding on his statement that love never fails by pointing out the temporary nature of those gifts compared to the superiority if love.

 

[JonC]

You mean like accusing me of "eisegesis" without any exegetical support?

No, not at all. You have insulted me throughout our dialogue here. But we both know (I hope) the other's position has support from biblical scholarship - we just disagree with the validity of the others support.

You think that I am ignoring something implied in "that which is perfect" and I think you are filling in a blank unnecessary. There is no need to become demeaning towards another for the disagreement

 

[TCassidy]

In one sentience - Paul is expounding on his statement that love never fails by pointing out the temporary nature of those gifts compared to the superiority if love.

Of course. That is obvious. But the question remains, when (and we could also ask "why") will "that which is partial" go away, as Paul says it will?

 

[TCassidy]

But we both know (I hope) the other's position has support from biblical scholarship - we just disagree with the validity of the others support.

You keep saying my position has no support, while at the same time assigning me a position I don't hold. How in the world can you disprove something when you don't even know what it is your are supposedly disproving?

 

[JonShaff]

You keep saying my position has no support, while at the same time assigning me a position I don't hold. How in the world can you disprove something when you don't even know what it is your are supposedly disproving?

What is your position?

 

[Revmitchell]

Another typical JonC "answer." Yada yada yada yada without saying anything.

What is your position?

Particular Baptists positions are secret. They will only let you know that you do not know it and that they think yours is wrong.

 

[JonC]

Of course. That is obvious. But the question remains, when (and we could also ask "why") will "that which is partial" go away, as Paul says it will?

We can ask that question, but I do not believe this is what Paul is addresing (I believe he is simply pointing to the temporary nature of those gifts to show the superiority of love).

 

[JonC]

You keep saying my position has no support, while at the same time assigning me a position I don't hold. How in the world can you disprove something when you don't even know what it is your are supposedly disproving?

Not at all, andI am sorry if it appeared that way. I thought your position was that these gifts were for the transition from the Old Covenant program to the New Covenant program, and that they ended as this transition concluded (I took to mean with the conclusion of the apostolic age). If. I misunderstood you then you have my apology.

Also, as I said earlier, I am confident that you have support for your interpretation.

 

[HankD]

1 Corinthians 13:8-13
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I am suggesting that we don’t need to “fill in the blank” but instead take the statement to be pointing to love as the greatest gift. If there is any eisogesis (and I believe there is) it falls squarely on those who would assign to Paul’s statement here something that is absent (i.e., the New Covenant program, the Canon of Scripture, or the formation of the Church). None of those things are even brought up by Paul. Paul begins by stating that love never fails, then he shows that those other gifts are temporary, and concludes that love is the greatest of all.

8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Greetings again Jon,
More in relationship to my view of these passages
My question in another post was eisogesis or exegesis of the dispensational view of this passage?

There is no reading into the text Jon because in the immediate context of the preceding verses we are explicitly (not implicitly) told what it is that will be done away (yes it is agape love and/or the greatest cause but that does not matter in the determination of eiso or exo as to what is going away) -

Prophecies , tongues and knowledge (this one - knowledge - I believe has to do with knowledge yet to come via the NT scriptures upon completion) shall pass away when that which is perfect (teleisos - finished, wanting nothing) and will provide the finish to the final revelation completed by the Son of God.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

These last days are obviously the Last Days of Revelation as it says "spoken" to us by His Son later the author of Hebrews shows that this final revelation of the Son of God supersedes the words of angels, Moses and the prophets or ANY created being.

The first chapter of Hebrews shows the superiority of Jesus Christ over ANY created being (angels, prophets, etc...) and then comes the "therefore" of Chapter 2 verse 1:

Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Our very salvation hangs upon what the God-man Jesus Christ has in these last days of revelation done and given to us.

Was confirmed (aorist) - no more need of further confirmation of signs, wonders and divers miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit after those who heard Him (Apostles, disciples) completed His revelation of the Scripture.

These modern churches producing "signs" IMO are not the signs of the early churches with a less than complete revelation were granted.

One tell-tale sign that these modern churches babbling away in "tongues" are in error is that they have chosen an easy sign to "duplicate".

Where are the dead which have been resurrected by the pastors of these churches?

HankD

 

[JonC]

8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Greetings again Jon,
More in relationship to my view of these passages
My question in another post was eisogesis or exegesis of the dispensational view of this passage?

There is no reading into the text Jon because in the immediate context of the preceding verses we are explicitly (not implicitly) told what it is that will be done away (yes it is agape love and/or the greatest cause but that does not matter in the determination of eiso or exo as to what is going away) -

Prophecies , tongues and knowledge (this one - knowledge - I believe has to do with knowledge yet to come via the NT scriptures upon completion) shall pass away when that which is perfect (teleisos - finished, wanting nothing) and will provide the finish to the final revelation completed by the Son of God.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

These last days are obviously the Last Days of Revelation as it says "spoken" to us by His Son later the author of Hebrews shows that this final revelation of the Son of God supersedes the words of angels, Moses and the prophets or ANY created being.

The first chapter of Hebrews shows the superiority of Jesus Christ over ANY created being (angels, prophets, etc...) and then comes the "therefore" of Chapter 2 verse 1:

Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Our very salvation hangs upoin what the God-man Jesus Christ has in these last days of revelation done and given to us.

Was confirmed (aorist) - no more need of further confirmation of signs, wonders and divers miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit after those who heard Him (Apostles, disciples) completed His revelation of the Scripture.

These modern churches producing "signs" IMO are not the signs of the early churches with a less than complete revelation were granted.

One tell-tale sign that these modern churches babbling away in "tongues" are in error is that they have chosen an easy sign to "duplicate".

Where are the dead which have been resurrected by the pastors of these churches?

HankD

Hey Hank.

I believe that we (as well as the audience of Hebrews) are in "these last days". And I do not believe that there will be additions to what has been revealed by the prophets and ultimately in Christ. I agree with your assessment of what we see as the modern exercise of tongues (and would add prophesy) as being fraudulent.

I doubt God uses these sign gifts today (especially in my culture). But I am by nature a doubter. I believe but God help my disbelief. I am just unwilling to justify my doubt that God used these things by denying the possibility. I understand your reasoning and agree to an extent. I agree enough to doubt, but not enough to denounce....if that makes sense.

 

[HankD]

Hey Hank.

I believe that we (as well as the audience of Hebrews) are in "these last days". And I do not believe that there will be additions to what has been revealed by the prophets and ultimately in Christ. I agree with your assessment of what we are in the modern exercise of tongues (and would add prophesy) as being fraudulent.

I doubt God uses these sign gifts today (especially in my culture). But I am by nature a doubter. I believe but God help my disbelief. I am just unwilling to justify my doubt that God used these things by denying the possibility. I understand your reasoning and agree to an extent. I agree enough to doubt, but not enough to denounce....if that makes sense.

Yes, makes sense and I am also like minded.
So these posts hopefully have been a sharing of our beliefs (We are actually very close in these matters) also for the benefit of others who are seeking answers as well.

As they say in the military "not a hill to die on".

Thanks Jon
HankD

 

[TCassidy]

What is your position?

That the spiritual gifts were given to ease the transition from the Old Testament economy to the New Testament economy. Some of the gifts were revelatory. Some of the gifts were confirmatory. Some of the gifts were humanitarian. But all were given for the same purpose, to ease the transition from the Old to the New.

And once the Old was gone and the New was mature the purpose for the gifts was fulfilled and thus they were no longer necessary.

Thanks for asking.

 

[JonShaff]

That the spiritual gifts were given to ease the transition from the Old Testament economy to the New Testament economy. Some of the gifts were revelatory. Some of the gifts were confirmatory. Some of the gifts were humanitarian. But all were given for the same purpose, to ease the transition from the Old to the New.

And once the Old was gone and the New was mature the purpose for the gifts was fulfilled and thus they were no longer necessary.

Thanks for asking.

My pleasure
Thanks for the response.

Do you believe the NT economy (I also like using this phrase) has reached maturity?

 

[TCassidy]

My pleasure
Thanks for the response.

Do you believe the NT economy (I also like using this phrase) has reached maturity?

I believe it has reached maturity (nothing more needs to be added to the Covenantal revelation) but not fruition. There is yet to be a Great Consumation of this present age.

 

[TCassidy]

I thought your position was that these gifts were for the transition from the Old Covenant program to the New Covenant program, and that they ended as this transition concluded (I took to mean with the conclusion of the apostolic age).

But that is not what you were saying in your earlier post. Here is how you replied:

1. Sign gifts never stood in place of Scripture.

2. In fact, the Scripture that validated the gospel for the earliest church had existed for over four centuries.

3. The gospel is proclaimed by the church.

4. It is nonsense to believe that Scripture validates the gospel to the lost who do not believe the Scripture.

5. The Sign Gifts plainly never stood in the place that Scripture now stands.

6. The church validates doctrine by Scripture.

7. But what validates the gospel to the world is the witness of the church.

The problem, John, is that were erecting straw man arguments which I never even mentioned. With the exception of #4 they are all non-sequiturs.

And #4 is just plain wrong. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." God has ordained preaching the word to the lost which He then uses to draw the as yet unbelieving elect unto Himself.

And #7 was incomplete. What was it the church was witnessing to? The Gospel, as you rightly say at the beginning of the statement, which is found where? Oh! Yes! In the New Testament!

 

[JonC]

But that is not what you were saying in your earlier post. Here is how you replied:

1. Sign gifts never stood in place of Scripture.

2. In fact, the Scripture that validated the gospel for the earliest church had existed for over four centuries.

3. The gospel is proclaimed by the church.

4. It is nonsense to believe that Scripture validates the gospel to the lost who do not believe the Scripture.

5. The Sign Gifts plainly never stood in the place that Scripture now stands.

6. The church validates doctrine by Scripture.

7. But what validates the gospel to the world is the witness of the church.

The problem, John, is that were erecting straw man arguments which I never even mentioned. With the exception of #4 they are all non-sequiturs.

And #4 is just plain wrong. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." God has ordained preaching the word to the lost which He then uses to draw the as yet unbelieving elect unto Himself.

And #7 was incomplete. What was it the church was witnessing to? The Gospel, as you rightly say at the beginning of the statement, which is found where? Oh! Yes! In the New Testament!

Yes, I realize that I often respond to posts (this time it was your posting of the Hebrews passage) only to address the OP in general by expressing my views and understandings broadly. I apologize for any confusion my “working it out” online may have caused.

I appreciate the critique of my position. I realize that I am neither the most intelligent nor most articulate member of this forum (I suspect I am most often the least, certainly the lesser between the two of us) . So I count it an honor to receive feedback from you about my understanding. I struggle with insecurity, so trust me when I say that having to put up with my inept attempts of expression here is a blessing when compared to verbal communication. But I'm a "dime a dozen". I'm sure you've ran into enough of people like me as a professor. That said, if you need for me to clarify or have a question, please feel free to ask.

 

[TCassidy]

Then why were they necessary?

Now that's the right question!

The gifts of the Spirit were given for a three-fold purpose.

1. The Revelatory sign gifts wherein new Revelation was being given.

No longer needed as new Revelation is no longer being given.

2. The confirmatory sign gifts wherein the Apostles were confirmed to be equal to or even better than the prophets of the Old Testament.

No longer needed as there are no more Apostles to confirm.

3. The Humanitarian sign gifts. Given to help administer the new creation, the church, by ministering to the people.

No longer needed as people now have the New Testament to counsel and guide them, to comfort them, and to teach them. And the older, more mature saints have been trained in New Testament teachings and practice which was not available to the 1st century saints, so, no longer needed.

All have passed away. Just as 1 Corinthians 13 tells us. Especially that last verse. "But now faith, hope, and love remain—these three. The greatest of these is love."

Even when Paul was writing 1 Corinthians, new converts were no longer being given these spiritual gifts. And in chapter 14 he warns not to trouble the older saints who had been given such gifts, and to allow them to exercise them as led, but to bear in mind that as the senior, gifted, saints grew old and died, the gifts died with them as those gifts were no longer needed. They were only part of what we needed. Now we have all that we need to preach, teach, and encourage one another.

 

[JonC]

Now that's the right question!

The gifts of the Spirit were given for a three-fold purpose.

1. The Revelatory sign gifts wherein new Revelation was being given.

No longer needed as new Revelation is no longer being given.

2. The confirmatory sign gifts wherein the Apostles were confirmed to be equal to or even better than the prophets of the Old Testament.

No longer needed as there are no more Apostles to confirm.

3. The Humanitarian sign gifts. Given to help administer the new creation, the church, by ministering to the people.

No longer needed as people now have the New Testament to counsel and guide them, to comfort them, and to teach them. And the older, more mature saints have been trained in New Testament teachings and practice which was not available to the 1st century saints, so, no longer needed.

All have passed away. Just as 1 Corinthians 13 tells us. Especially that last verse. "But now faith, hope, and love remain—these three. The greatest of these is love."

Even when Paul was writing 1 Corinthians, new converts were no longer being given these spiritual gifts. And in chapter 14 he warns not to trouble the older saints who had been given such gifts, and to allow them to exercise them as led, but to bear in mind that as the senior, gifted, saints grew old and died, the gifts died with them as those gifts were no longer needed. They were only part of what we needed. Now we have all that we need to preach, teach, and encourage one another.

I understand the reasons that you come to this conclusion. At the same time, I side with Joel Beeke and D.A. Carson's interpretation that Paul is instead reflecting the eschatological aspects of love never failing by presenting a contrast between the nature of love and these gifts which will not extend beyond this age into the age to come where "all flesh will see the glory of the Lord".

While I agree with Beeke and Carson (and Gordon Fee regarding "prophesy" in this passage) it is not because I adopted their positions but instead was evaluating mine (I believe a new and unique interpretation is typically error). So I remain open to other interpretations, and will continue to consider your view here.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that by the time Paul wrote this letter to the church at Corinth these gifts had ceased (they were being practiced but were no longer given to new converts).

But Paul also seemed to encourage the exercise of tongues (wishing that all spoke in tongues) and even encouraged the congregation to earnestly desire the gift of prophesy. If Paul's point is that God has ceased giving these sign gifts, then why does Paul encourage his audience to seek them? Do you consider "prophesy" here to be one of the sign gifts? (I ask because Gordon Fee holds here it can only mean the sign gift of prophesy or a supernatural knowledge akin to Old Testament prophesy, while Wayne Grudem indicates it can also mean spontaneously proclaiming something the Holy Spirit has brought to mind).

Thanks.

 

[TCassidy]

But Paul also seemed to encourage the exercise of tongues (wishing that all spoke in tongues) and even encouraged the congregation to earnestly desire the gift of prophesy.

Yes, as you said below.

(they were being practiced but were no longer given to new converts).

If Paul's point is that God has ceased giving these sign gifts, then why does Paul encourage his audience to seek them?

Why would they not? The gifts are no longer being given but gifted men are still there practicing their gifts and will continue doing so until the completion of God's self-revelation of the New Testament.

Do you consider "prophesy" here to be one of the sign gifts?

Yes.