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Well, I certainly have no intention of turning a blind eye to the trend going on in this country (and planet) against Christianity.

The typically argument, usually coming from the liberal side, which over-emphasizes separation of church and state while wrongly interpreting it and unwittingly manipulating it to mean protection from Christianity is a poor argument (ploy) for Christians to be getting behind.

Closely following this argument is the denial that we are a country founded on Christian principles. Not buying that sad propaganda either.

Overlooked and cast to the side is that the vast majority of U.S. citizens identify as Christians and reasons given to stop Christian prayer in the schools that our children learn our values in end up placing secular values above our foundational values.

Therein, the argument over separation of church and state becomes a tool of secular leftist who wish nothing more than remove Christian values from our country and we have Christians enabling the secular leftist’ agenda with misguided arguments such as that perhaps one, or maybe two students in a class of 25 might not agree and thereby conclude that none should be taught (or as they would like put it, “have forced upon them”) our values. How convenient for those who wish to abolish Christianity from our society, but how detrimental for us who wish to keep these values in our “democracy”.

The problem is with the idea that Christians should be pacifists to the point of discontinuing any form of teaching Christian values in our schools, or even country for that matter, and that this opens up the doors for those who are not pacifists (which is pretty much rest, albeit a small minority: Atheists, Muslims, etc.) to overrun the very value system our country was formed on and has made us who we are.

IMO, jumping in with agreement with the premises and conclusions which follow along behind the arguments based on separation of church and state which deny the right of open Christian worship and teaching in our public schools and disregards the damage it is doing to our traditional value system is a fool’s errand. And I, for one, do not buy into that abandoning our Christian goals is (1) somehow the Christian thing to do or (2) was ever the reason for the existence of laws pertaining to separation of church and state.

It is the time for Christians to stand up for Christian values and put aside this political correctness nonsense being taught to our children and which is spreading out of control even coming from learned Christians who have surrendered to and accepted this secular ideology that is being shoved our throats by those who, again, wish nothing more than to stop Christian influences in the world and are certainly not pacifists about their agenda...

 

This is the first you have spoken of it as being "release time," so that changes a few issues, but not the fundamental ones.

Release time does not necessarily involve any separation of church and state entanglements, although there was a Supreme Court case regarding the issue (McCollum v. Board of Education) where a specific program in Champaign, Illinois was declared unconstitutional since the public school system was involved in the administration, organization, and support of religious education classes.

I think there is a way to do them without violating separation of church and state, but that raises the question as to why we are trying to involve the state in religious training at all. Can't churches and families do this better than tying it to the structure of the state? Why do we need to the state to prompt us to piety?

 

Well we are not talking about "typical liberal arguments," but Baptist principles, so you comparison is silly.

Legally, we are founded on the Constitution, a secular document. That's simply a fact.

Not overlooked at all.

No one is stopping Christian prayer. The only thing that is being prohibited is the state getting involved with or supporting religious exercises (public prayer being one of them) through its influence or means.

Or Baptists.

How does that work? Do Christian values reside in the government? What about the churches? Have they totally given the calling of Jesus to the government?

I am a Christian because I am a disciple of Jesus. I don't need the government to tell me to do it, nor do I need or want the government to support it.

Do you need the government teaching you Christian values?

You really need to read some Baptist history.

So said the Congregational churches of New England as they imprisoned and whipped Baptists for not giving proper reverence to the established church.

Seriously, you need to study Baptist history... even early American religious history will do.

What Christian has advocated that Christians should not teach Christian values in our nation? You're making stuff up again.

Jesus needs the U.S. government to keep the "gates of hell" from prevailing against His church?

Then Baptists are fools. You should probably stop posting in the Baptist forums since you obviously do not have Baptist convictions.

Strawman (among a few others). No one has suggesting abandoning Christian goals unless your goals are to use the government as a means of supporting mission of the churches - then you are not really in "Christian" territory anymore, IMO.

Again, this is not "secular" ideology, it is Baptist ideology. It is also not pacifism to any degree. It is the church being faithful to Jesus.

Again, you REALLY need to dig deep into Baptist theology and history. You are embarrassing yourself.

 

Depending on how it was done, it may not violate separation of church and state. But it has the potential for excessive entanglement of the state and religious institutions.

 

Let's consider "fundamental" values pertaining to the subject of the real purpose of separation of church and state and how it is being manipulated... .

I so tire of this one-sided defense...especially when I hear it coming from professed Christians...

Well, perhaps not when start opening your mind to the agendas being thought our children 8 hours a day by secular leftist and start considering peer pressure, etc., etc....

Why would a Christian sit back and allow Christian family values to be destroyed by teachers teachings in our public schools systems?! For example school books which teach that "some families have 2 mommies or 2 daddies and that's normal and good values" ...have you ever considered WHO is pushing these books on our school?! OH, BUT THEY"RE NOT A (dirty word) "RELIGION"!! So their values being taught are alright!

Oh! Only bigots would be opposed to teaching alternate family values. Politically correct nonsense!!

Of course, those who are critic of Christian values are not bigots. This is what is being taught and this is what is being accepted, no questions and no arguments of opposition made by professing "Christians"...oh no, that wouldn't be "politically correct" ..so sad.

It is so sad that so many are buying into this nonsense and accepting these sad misguided arguments for separation of church and state and interpreting them to be an righteous attack tool against teaching Christian values in our great country wish was formed on Christian values. The Progressive Globalist agenda rages on and people calling themselves Christians refuse to take a stand.

It is no wonder to me the same that sit out such an important election as we just had would also sit out on standing up for Christian values... its just sad.

 

I thought I had mentioned release time BB. I'm sorry if I didn't.

Release time can be an opportunity for your church.
Situation: A school representative calls your pastor: "We are a Release Time school and have 20 students whose parents are interested in a Christian teaching experience for their children, are you interested?"

BB I don't know if you know anything about the 252 program or the AWANA program.
These programs are not specifically designed for release time but they are examples of programs like 252 which could be modified to be used in a Release Time situation. Or write the curricula yourself.

There are "unchurched" families who though they don't go to church themselves want this for their children.
We have such children in a 252-like program. We purchased the materials and have adapted it to our environment.

We have had a small measure of success, but success nonetheless.

went back and found my mention of release time post #77 - real late in the debate. Sorry.

HankD

 

Your entire argument is a strawman, it amounts to a repeat fabrication of the agenda of the Progressive Globalists' values ("the Devil's territory") of which you have accepted the arguments of and "unwittingly" (...if one is a true Christian and wishes to uphold Christian values in this country) go about the agenda defending its ultimate goals.

Denying the secular ideology, passivism and political correctness does not make it go away nor does trying to justify it renaming this ideology as Baptist theology, Mr. "No True Scotsman", who ignorantly tries to use an adjective of "honesty" to claim that concept as a fallacy rather realizing the meaning applies to a group fallacy.

No, you sir, are embarrassing yourself if you think you can turn all my premises and conclusions around by telling me it is not the Baptist thing...

Your interpretation of separation of church and state is unfortunately biased, programmed into you by those who are on an agenda of the Devil and exactly disregards the damage that I spoke of in exactly the way I described that it does ...and the side you take in this argument speaks volumes about what is wrong with the country and why it is going the way it is.

 

Is it getting HOT in here!?

HankD

 

The "real purpose" of separation of church and state is to preserve religious liberty. Baptists have been advocates of separation of church and state since the beginning.

Perhaps you should home school if the faith you teach your children can't stand up to other viewpoints. However, that's not going to help when they leave your cocoon.

So you think it is essential to be in control? You don't have enough faith that the teachings of Christ can't stand up to the challenges of the world without compulsion from the state?

It is nonsense, but it has nothing to do with the historic Baptist principles I'm advocating.

Baptist theology is not nonsense. You should really rethink as to whether or not you should label yourself a Baptist.

I've noticed that you really haven't engaged those arguments. You are just spinning hand-wringing stories of how the teachings of Jesus can't compete in society without the assistance of the state.

I'm all for teaching Christian values. I'm trying to do so right here for you. Religious liberty is best preserved through institutional separation of church and state. You are rejecting that Christian value.

I don't know what people you are referring to, but they don't sound Baptist. I am taking a stand with you at this moment.

Well I didn't sit out on the election, so I don't know what you are talking about. It IS quite sad that you simply engage in rhetoric instead of dealing with reality.

 

There is a lot of hot air being blown around. Maybe some folks can lay of the rhetoric and actually discuss the issues.

 

It may have been in a different context. That makes your views much more reasonable.

Sure. As long as the school does it properly, I don't see a conflict.

I don't know anything about the "252 program", but a former church where I was a member did AWANA. I didn't care for the way it was done there, but I suspect that it was not being done properly. It was essentially a scripture-memorization class so that the young children could repeat back certain scriptures and responses so that they could be baptized ASAP - essentially early childhood baptism. They were baptizing a lot of 3 and 4-year-olds who could repeat rote answers and scriptures back to the leaders. I was appalled since I didn't think that they had any concept of becoming a disciple of Jesus. The Spirit can work in the very young, but I don't think whole classes of students - like clockwork - normally get baptized every year.

My only concern about the issues of curricula is that the school MUST NOT have a say in what is taught. That would be a clear violation of the separation of church and state.

Sure. The same folks who drop off their children at church on Sunday but won't darken the door themselves.

I appreciate your clarification my brother.

 

It's historic Baptist theology. You should look into it.

You are equating Baptist theology with the devil's agenda. Do you really want to do that?

Crack a book on Baptist history. Your ignorance is appalling.

Seriously, Here's a standard work.

...and I'm in league with the devil. Been a few years since someone claimed that.

Wow.

 

I agree with all your points. Yes we also had AWANA for a while and there was a lot of scripture memory work however we didn't use it as a preparation for baptism of children. The 252 gives a lot more latitude.

HankD

 

Yet you are clearly on the side of those who manipulate it in order to take Christianity out of the public school system because it a “religion” (One of several issues you’ve avoided while attempting to rely on your No Scotsman Fallacy).

You couldn’t be more wrong or of more avoidance of my point as you’ve unwittingly helped me prove one of the reasons why Christian values are declining in our public schools, which is directly associated with the ideology that it not politically correct to take a Christian stand in public schools.

First, my children were taught and did a very good job of standing up for Christian values in public school. For example, my daughter, who was President of the Choir during her junior and senior years in a high schools with 2,800 students held nothing back when it came to putting Christ not only into their Christmas program but several others as well. I couldn’t be more proud of how both children stood up unapologetically for Christian values against their peers as well as the faculty who attempted to “preach” against it their public school classes.

Second, and here is where you’ve shown (making my point) the failure to stand up is part of the self-defeating type of agenda which you promote by daring to suggest I give into the secular ideology that Christianity does not belong in the public school system and unwittingly suggest that I live in a cocoon while you when it is in fact YOU that promotes, along with Progressive Globalists, that my children have no place in the cocoon which supposedly can only promote secular values.

Strawman. I think it is necessary to stand up for Christian values in everything and everywhere. Your second question is equivalent to suggesting I don’t have enough faith to trust God in the challenges of healing illness without the use of state run hospitals. – While begging the question it assumes that one’s faith must be separated from secular state run institutions which is a request I will NEVER heed as I NEVER leave my faith at the door as many teachers in our public schools attempt to tell their students they must do!

You are advocating not standing up for promoting Christianity values in our public schools system while question begging your interpretation “Baptist principles” into it and trying to rely on a “No True Scotsman Fallacy” as your only defense for not taking action.

Another strawman based on your question begging while trying to rely on the No True Scotsman fallacy. Not one point directly addressed, just continued rhetoric and fallacies.

What a joke! The man trying to turn every one of my arguments into that I’m not following Baptist theology (also funny how you relate issues of separation of church and state into “theology” while neglecting soul liberty) says “I” am not engaging the arguments. How ridiculous can you be?

Says the man who is attempting to spin my argument from having to compete without “interference” to without “assistance” of the state while NEGLECTING my point that the playing field in not level when Atheism is not called a “religion” ( it is a religion of self-righteous moral interpretations) in that their values, such as secular family values, are indeed funded, promoted and taught in the public schools WITHOUT interference lest one be called a bigot and a homophobe for complaining about these state sponsored ideologies which work against Christian values. Again, how convenient that one value is called a “religion” and the other is not thereby is supposedly fair according to laws of separation of church and state and “Baptist Theology”. Do you even hear what you’re saying and understand what you’re trying to impose with your following and repeating of secular ideology?!

You say, Christian values are equal to the laws of separation of church and state. Well, that belief is your first problem, the second is your question begging conclusion that you have made a correct argument about preservation as the rights of Christians and their values are undeniably being washed away by these type of secular arguments you’re so fond of.

Funny, because I named them (“Progressive Globalists”) and I could only hope none call themselves “Baptist”. No sir, you are not taking a stand with me when you support and defend their very arguments that are designed to and do indeed work against “us” (Christians).

Bud, I’ve read enough of your opinions to see where your sympathies lie and I call what you did “sitting out” unless you voted for Hillary, which wouldn’t surprise me, like it or not. And you obviously are not one to be schooling me of “reality” any more than those you unwittingly (…at best) support in our schools systems by standing up for them promoting their values while denying Christians to do the same and attempting to justify such by use the laws of separation of church and state to defend what I will also call “your Leftist Leaning Progressive Globalists’ bias”…

 

Do yourself a favor and never attempt to call out the fallacy of "No True Scotsman" in a debate again for you should know that you do so in complete hypocrisy if you do.

You know and I know that was in comparison to your rhetorically continuing your NTS fallacy suggestion that I am not in the league of "Baptist Theology"... plus it was the agenda you are promoting with your "friends" not you or what you like to call "Baptist Theology" ...Mr. Baptist Believer...

 

*checks map* Take a good look kids, says here this is the worlds largest strawman.

 

I suppose you believe the "Baptist Theology" BB speaks of concerning separation of church and state is equal to the the teaching of "religious liberty" also. Go figure! I call this "ideology" comparison mere question begging the conclusion in that it is not preserving squat, especially "religious liberty".

 

"Check" your last couple replies to me and come back and please do tell me how they qualify as logic and reasoned debate, "tough guy"...