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Featured Perishing without having ever heard the gospel they end up in....

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Agent47, Jan 27, 2017.

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Billions who live and die without any exposure to the gospel, where do they spend eternity?

  1. Lake of fire

    6 vote(s)
    54.5%

  2. Heaven

    3 vote(s)
    27.3%

  3. I don't know

    2 vote(s)
    18.2%

  4. It's a mystery

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  5. They get a second chance to receive the gospel before judgement

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  6. I don't care

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
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  1. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    God is under no obligation to save even one rebel such as you and me.
     
    #81 MennoSota, Jan 27, 2017
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It is true that God was never obligated to save one, much less all, from the consequences of their own sin. And if God did save one, He was not obligated to save all.

    At the same time it is also true that there are none who have not heard and rejected God as He revealed Himself to them. Out of these, God saves a people as His “particular possession” (1 Peter 2).
     
    #82 JonC, Jan 27, 2017
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The love of God is only found In saving Union with Christ....not outside of Him...it is to everyone believing and continuing to believe.
     
    #83 Iconoclast, Jan 27, 2017
  4. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    You just presume because we disagree with you we must be awful people.

    I love God.

    God has made his will known is my point. He commands all not to sin, I say amen to that.

    You act like you still don't know what God wants.


    He commands everyone not to sin.....so do you think he cares about everyone?

    "oh I don't know" only an idiot would say.
     
    #84 utilyan, Jan 28, 2017
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No liceanse to keep on sinning, but assurancet hat regardless if sinning or not, I am still saved!
     
    #85 Yeshua1, Jan 28, 2017
  6. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    You are preaching a legalistic law and not grace.

    You forget that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. God's commands to not sin do not mean that if we stopped (and it is impossible for us to not be sinners) we could somehow earn our way into God's family. We can't. No, the command to not sin is so that it might go well with us on this earth.

    Please know that salvation is and always has been by grace and by grace alone.
     
    #86 MennoSota, Jan 28, 2017
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God does indeed desire tht all sinners wouldcmeto christ, but aso l knows that nonewill unless he intevenes on their behalf, hence the Elect of God unto salvation in Christ!
    That is where 4 point calvinism branchedoff from, as they see Godpotentially willing to save all sinners, but really gave saving faith towards Only His own...
     
    #87 Yeshua1, Jan 28, 2017
  8. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    It's arbitrary...choosing you from eternity over the other
     
    #88 Agent47, Jan 28, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    1. God decreed the Fall.
    2. The Fall necessitates sin
    3. Sin condemns all
    4. God elects to save some of those he decreed to fall
     
    #89 Agent47, Jan 28, 2017
  10. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    If the choice is made without reference to any characteristics or actions related to the person being chosen, then the choice is essentially arbitrary.
     
    #90 StefanM, Jan 28, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    You are right; He is under no obligation those he condemned by his decree.

    He decreed the Fall by which all men are condemned.
     
    #91 Agent47, Jan 28, 2017
  12. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    The father of spirits of men hated my ancestors
     
    #92 Agent47, Jan 28, 2017
  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    May I ask what you are doing to make Christ known?
    Since you are obviously so concerned about the lost, are you preaching the Gospel in Kenya (I think you said) and the surrounding countries as hard as you can go, and seeking to spread the Gospel among the Moslems and others who have never heard of Christ.

    That is what Calvinists like David Brainard, William Carey and John Patton did.

    Just wondering.
     
    #93 Martin Marprelate, Jan 28, 2017
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I disagree here (surprise! :Laugh).

    When it is said that we don't know God's mind in these things, and that God chooses some and not others, this is not saying that God's actually choosing is arbitrary. Instead it is saying that God has created us in Jesus Christ for a purpose that God has planned beforehand, but the reason God worked in our lives to reveal the truth of the gospel and not in the lives of others is unknowable. This is not saying God chooses arbitrarily.

    Maybe God chooses people based on his plan (how he will use them). Maybe God chooses people based on a foreknowledge of their belief (I think the reasoning here is a bit circular, but I like circular reasoning...I'm a Dr. Who fan, if you didn't know). Maybe God chooses people for reasons we cannot comprehend. Maybe God chooses those who have the least potential (like me). Maybe his choices are arbitrary. The statement was that men do not know God's reasoning.

    (My presupposed view here is that I believe men can know God only as God has revealed himself to man.)
     
    #94 JonC, Jan 28, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Try harder
     
    #95 Agent47, Jan 28, 2017
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The difficulty here is that "the elect of God" is never coupled with "unto salvation" in Scripture. What I mean is that the term "the elect" is always, always, always referring to people who are saved (not people who are chosen and will be saved sometime in the future).

    Part of the problem (a large part of the problem) in discussing these things is clarity in our doctrines. I know what you mean when you say "the elect of God unto salvation". But to others it sounds as if the two people groups are "the elect" and "the non-elect", with "the elect" including people who are not saved yet. Scripture presents two people group - saved and unsaved.
     
    #96 JonC, Jan 28, 2017
  17. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Excellent. Ignorance of why God hates your brother is a perfect excuse
     
    #97 Agent47, Jan 28, 2017
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Correct, as there are really 2 groups of people, those still in Adam,. and those in Cjhrist now. God has elected/chosen to save out His own people fo His glory, and thoe people sll were once lost, but now aive once saved!
     
    #98 Yeshua1, Jan 28, 2017
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God can still love the lost, can't he?
     
    #99 Yeshua1, Jan 28, 2017
  20. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    The eternally lost?

    Only in the loosest sense of the word.

    Because 400 trillion years from now, hell/lake of fire could just be destroyed. Will it?
     
    #100 StefanM, Jan 28, 2017
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