Perishing without having ever heard the gospel they end up in....

[MennoSota]

What do you make of a necessary instrument for salvation not reaching all men?

God does not Will to save all men?

God is under no obligation to save even one rebel such as you and me.

 

[JonC]

God is under no obligation to save even one rebel such as you and me.

It is true that God was never obligated to save one, much less all, from the consequences of their own sin. And if God did save one, He was not obligated to save all.

At the same time it is also true that there are none who have not heard and rejected God as He revealed Himself to them. Out of these, God saves a people as His “particular possession” (1 Peter 2).

 

[Iconoclast]

Is it in order to say God does not love these he never intended to save?

For God so loved that He gave....He gave them nothing

God commends his love to uswards in.that while we were yet sinners....He commends nothing

The love of God is only found In saving Union with Christ....not outside of Him...it is to everyone believing and continuing to believe.

 

[utilyan]

Why so angry?

Do you curse God for being Sovereign and choosing whom He wills?

God displayed grace from Genesis to Revelation. He has always chosen whom to redeem out of rebel humanity.

Grace is a wonderful thing.

You just presume because we disagree with you we must be awful people.

I love God.

God has made his will known is my point. He commands all not to sin, I say amen to that.

You act like you still don't know what God wants.


He commands everyone not to sin.....so do you think he cares about everyone?

"oh I don't know" only an idiot would say.

 

[Yeshua1]

At the time in old testament it was true. However Jesus Christ is one of us, he did not sin and did not fall short.

We are sinners don't get me wrong. Today you can't say all sinned and all fallen short, Jesus Christ broke that for us. Jesus Christ is one of us.


He is quoting old testament not some new doctrine.

The Christian Judaizers believed themselves superior to Christian Gentiles.

And Paul shows them that when they try to force THE LAW it was something THEY could not uphold themselves, they all sinned on it, they all fall short completing it.

Jesus Christ is the only one who completed the Law.

The Judaizers are saying Gentiles are not Justified by the Law, Paul is saying no kidding no one is justified by the Law.

We see Peter elsewhere say to the church in council how can we expect to put the burden on the gentiles something we couldn't handle ourselves.


I can't say hey everything you do is a filthy rag and your nothing but a sinner, because its not the law that justifies you, you are justified by Jesus Christ.

You are under grace. You are not a filthy rag, When God looks at you he will always say my child before he says a sinner.

Jesus Loves you.

Does that mean you have a license to sin now?

Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be!

No license to sin. You can still put yourself in hell.

No liceanse to keep on sinning, but assurancet hat regardless if sinning or not, I am still saved!

 

[MennoSota]

You just presume because we disagree with you we must be awful people.

I love God.

God has made his will known is my point. He commands all not to sin, I say amen to that.

You act like you still don't know what God wants.


He commands everyone not to sin.....so do you think he cares about everyone?

"oh I don't know" only an idiot would say.

You are preaching a legalistic law and not grace.

You forget that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. God's commands to not sin do not mean that if we stopped (and it is impossible for us to not be sinners) we could somehow earn our way into God's family. We can't. No, the command to not sin is so that it might go well with us on this earth.

Please know that salvation is and always has been by grace and by grace alone.

 

[Yeshua1]

One of my favorite books is God in the Wasteland by David Wells (I liked this even more than No Place for Truth). Here, Wells more eloquently describes what I make of the gospel not going out to all men than I could ever articulate:

“The fundamental problem in the evangelical world today is not inadequate technique, insufficient organization,, or antiquated music, and those who want to squander the church’s resources bandaging these scratches will do nothing to stanch the flow of blood that is spilling from its true wounds. The fundamental problem in the evangelical world today is that God rests too inconsequentially upon the church. His truth is too distant, his grace is too ordinary, his judgment is too benign, his gospel is too easy, and his Christ is too common.”

That God does not desire that men perish is biblical. But God created men with the capacity of human free agency (here I mean the ability to freely choose). God could have denied men a free will, but then men would lack the capacity to love, hate, obey, disobey…they would be hollow men. So God creates men and desires that all would obey. And man has every opportunity. Even before the gospel is articulated in the work of the Cross God tells man that if they would only turn to Him He would heal them. God reaches out to men, and all men have this opportunity to turn to God and be healed. The Muslim man who never once head the gospel account has this opportunity right now, as we speak. It is within that man’s power, if only he would turn to God. God is a God of means Luke illustrates this in the book of Acts as the Holy Spirit leads one carrying the gospel to one who has been turned towards God, yet is still needing the gospel message.

So yes, God desires that all men be saved and that none perish, for God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. But God does not violate man’s will to make his purposes come into being. For all to be saved (Universalism) God would have had to saved countless numbers of people while they were kicking and screaming to get free.

The fact that the gospel message does not reach all men has absolutely no bearing on the condemnation of those who will not believe, even those who have not heard the gospel message. They are not condemned for that which they were not entrusted (they are not condemned for rejecting the gospel message, they were already condemned for rejecting Christ).

God does indeed desire tht all sinners wouldcmeto christ, but aso l knows that nonewill unless he intevenes on their behalf, hence the Elect of God unto salvation in Christ!
That is where 4 point calvinism branchedoff from, as they see Godpotentially willing to save all sinners, but really gave saving faith towards Only His own...

 

[Agent47]

You disrespect the sovereignty of God. You and I are so ignorant of God's ways that to claim God's will is arbitrary is a foolish statement. It is coming from your prideful heart.

It's arbitrary...choosing you from eternity over the other

 

[Agent47]

One of my favorite books is God in the Wasteland by David Wells (I liked this even more than No Place for Truth). Here, Wells more eloquently describes what I make of the gospel not going out to all men than I could ever articulate:

“The fundamental problem in the evangelical world today is not inadequate technique, insufficient organization,, or antiquated music, and those who want to squander the church’s resources bandaging these scratches will do nothing to stanch the flow of blood that is spilling from its true wounds. The fundamental problem in the evangelical world today is that God rests too inconsequentially upon the church. His truth is too distant, his grace is too ordinary, his judgment is too benign, his gospel is too easy, and his Christ is too common.”

That God does not desire that men perish is biblical. But God created men with the capacity of human free agency (here I mean the ability to freely choose). God could have denied men a free will, but then men would lack the capacity to love, hate, obey, disobey…they would be hollow men. So God creates men and desires that all would obey. And man has every opportunity. Even before the gospel is articulated in the work of the Cross God tells man that if they would only turn to Him He would heal them. God reaches out to men, and all men have this opportunity to turn to God and be healed. The Muslim man who never once head the gospel account has this opportunity right now, as we speak. It is within that man’s power, if only he would turn to God. God is a God of means Luke illustrates this in the book of Acts as the Holy Spirit leads one carrying the gospel to one who has been turned towards God, yet is still needing the gospel message.

So yes, God desires that all men be saved and that none perish, for God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. But God does not violate man’s will to make his purposes come into being. For all to be saved (Universalism) God would have had to saved countless numbers of people while they were kicking and screaming to get free.

The fact that the gospel message does not reach all men has absolutely no bearing on the condemnation of those who will not believe, even those who have not heard the gospel message. They are not condemned for that which they were not entrusted (they are not condemned for rejecting the gospel message, they were already condemned for rejecting Christ).

1. God decreed the Fall.
2. The Fall necessitates sin
3. Sin condemns all
4. God elects to save some of those he decreed to fall

 

[StefanM]

It's arbitrary...choosing you from eternity over the other

If the choice is made without reference to any characteristics or actions related to the person being chosen, then the choice is essentially arbitrary.

 

[Agent47]

God is under no obligation to save even one rebel such as you and me.

You are right; He is under no obligation those he condemned by his decree.

He decreed the Fall by which all men are condemned.

 

[Agent47]

The love of God is only found In saving Union with Christ....not outside of Him...it is to everyone believing and continuing to believe.

The father of spirits of men hated my ancestors

 

[Martin Marprelate]

What do you make of a necessary instrument for salvation not reaching all men?

God does not Will to save all men?

May I ask what you are doing to make Christ known?
Since you are obviously so concerned about the lost, are you preaching the Gospel in Kenya (I think you said) and the surrounding countries as hard as you can go, and seeking to spread the Gospel among the Moslems and others who have never heard of Christ.

That is what Calvinists like David Brainard, William Carey and John Patton did.

Just wondering.

 

[JonC]

It's arbitrary...choosing you from eternity over the other

I disagree here (surprise! ).

When it is said that we don't know God's mind in these things, and that God chooses some and not others, this is not saying that God's actually choosing is arbitrary. Instead it is saying that God has created us in Jesus Christ for a purpose that God has planned beforehand, but the reason God worked in our lives to reveal the truth of the gospel and not in the lives of others is unknowable. This is not saying God chooses arbitrarily.

Maybe God chooses people based on his plan (how he will use them). Maybe God chooses people based on a foreknowledge of their belief (I think the reasoning here is a bit circular, but I like circular reasoning...I'm a Dr. Who fan, if you didn't know). Maybe God chooses people for reasons we cannot comprehend. Maybe God chooses those who have the least potential (like me). Maybe his choices are arbitrary. The statement was that men do not know God's reasoning.

(My presupposed view here is that I believe men can know God only as God has revealed himself to man.)

 

[Agent47]

May I ask what you are doing to make Christ known?
Since you are obviously so concerned about the lost, are you preaching the Gospel in Kenya (I think you said) and the surrounding countries as hard as you can go, and seeking to spread the Gospel among the Moslems and others who have never heard of Christ.

That is what Calvinists like David Brainard, William Carey and John Patton did.

Just wondering.

Try harder

 

[JonC]

God does indeed desire tht all sinners wouldcmeto christ, but aso l knows that nonewill unless he intevenes on their behalf, hence the Elect of God unto salvation in Christ!
That is where 4 point calvinism branchedoff from, as they see Godpotentially willing to save all sinners, but really gave saving faith towards Only His own...

The difficulty here is that "the elect of God" is never coupled with "unto salvation" in Scripture. What I mean is that the term "the elect" is always, always, always referring to people who are saved (not people who are chosen and will be saved sometime in the future).

Part of the problem (a large part of the problem) in discussing these things is clarity in our doctrines. I know what you mean when you say "the elect of God unto salvation". But to others it sounds as if the two people groups are "the elect" and "the non-elect", with "the elect" including people who are not saved yet. Scripture presents two people group - saved and unsaved.

 

[Agent47]

I disagree here (surprise! ).

When it is said that we don't know God's mind in these things, and that God chooses some and not others, this is not saying that God's actually choosing is arbitrary. Instead it is saying that God has created us in Jesus Christ for a purpose that God has planned beforehand, but the reason God worked in our lives to reveal the truth of the gospel and not in the lives of others is unknowable. This is not saying God chooses arbitrarily.

Maybe God chooses people based on his plan (how he will use them). Maybe God chooses people based on a foreknowledge of their belief (I think the reasoning here is a bit circular, but I like circular reasoning...I'm a Dr. Who fan, if you didn't know). Maybe God chooses people for reasons we cannot comprehend. Maybe God chooses those who have the least potential (like me). Maybe his choices are arbitrary. The statement was that men do not know God's reasoning.

(My presupposed view here is that I believe men can know God only as God has revealed himself to man.)

Excellent. Ignorance of why God hates your brother is a perfect excuse

 

[Yeshua1]

The difficulty here is that "the elect of God" is never coupled with "unto salvation" in Scripture. What I mean is that the term "the elect" is always, always, always referring to people who are saved (not people who are chosen and will be saved sometime in the future).

Part of the problem (a large part of the problem) in discussing these things is clarity in our doctrines. I know what you mean when you say "the elect of God unto salvation". But to others it sounds as if the two people groups are "the elect" and "the non-elect", with "the elect" including people who are not saved yet. Scripture presents two people group - saved and unsaved.

Correct, as there are really 2 groups of people, those still in Adam,. and those in Cjhrist now. God has elected/chosen to save out His own people fo His glory, and thoe people sll were once lost, but now aive once saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

Excellent. Ignorance of why God hates your brother is a perfect excuse

God can still love the lost, can't he?

 

[StefanM]

God can still love the lost, can't he?

The eternally lost?

Only in the loosest sense of the word.

Because 400 trillion years from now, hell/lake of fire could just be destroyed. Will it?