Featured God is Good not Evil

God does draw his elect to him and saves them.

God also draws all humanity before his throne and judges their sin.

Those for whom Yeshua's atonement reconciles them will be found not guilty in Christ. Those for whom there is no atonement will be found guilty in their sin.
God's grace is so amazing.

You still have no concept in regard to universalism. Keep trying to strain beet juice out of a turnip and keep avoiding Ephesians 1 and 2.

 

The text doesn't say that. [Personal attack edited] The text clearly states: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

That's not the context here....Stop attempting to sidetrack the issue by jumping from one subject to another....

 

The text you are using has nothing to do with salvation, hence my statement that you are attempting to squeeze beet juice out of a turnip.

Yet, when I point you to clear passages about salvation, you won't even acknowledge the passage.

If you want to keep playing "take the verse out of context" be my guest.

http://reformedforhisglory.blogspot.com/2011/08/refuting-arminian-arguments-on-john.html?m=1

 

You said that God draws men to Himself and that this grace is irresistible. Of course you minimize this to mean only "the elect", of which, you are a proud member!

However, the text I gave you in John 12:32 clearly state that Christ draws "all men" to himself.

Since God's grace is irresistible in the eyes of the Calvinist, then the logical conclusion to your theology is that "all men" will ultimately be saved.

 

http://reformedforhisglory.blogspot.com/2011/08/refuting-arminian-arguments-on-john.html?m=1

 

The "all" is referring to those living during the time of Christ until the end of the world. The later is revealed from the historical records of the Bible. Even with this clarification there is no such thing as "limited atonement". Calvinism is still a heresy.

 

From the link I posted:

In this text Greeks come to seek Jesus. Salvation was believed to be exclusively for the Jews. But Jesus said "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd (John 10:16). These other sheep are the non-Jews, the gentiles (in this one flock there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile- Galatians 3:28). This of course was a scandal to the Jews who believed they were the apple in God's eye. Phillip tells Jesus (about the Greeks seeking after Him) and Jesus says "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified" (verse 23). This sets the tone for Jesus to speak about His death (verse 27-28), and leads to our verse of focus: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."


I believe that the word "all" in this context is referring to Jews and Gentiles. Out of these (both Jew and Gentile) God will draw His elect (Rev 5:9). This makes sense given the Greeks seeing Jesus.

It even seems that John Wesley would agree with me:


" Lifted up from the earth - This is a Hebraism which signifies dying. Death in general is all that is usually imported. But our Lord made use of this phrase, rather than others that were equivalent, because it so well suited the particular manner of his death. I will draw all men - Gentiles as well as Jews. And those who follow my drawings, Satan shall not be able to keep." Proof here

It is problematic to read "all" in this verse as every single person. Here is why:


Was God attempting to draw those in the old testament whom He sent no prophets to?
Was God attempting to draw those in the old testament whom He sent the Israelites to kill?
Is God attempting to draw those whom He knows (and has always known) would never choose Him?

Further, the word "draw" in Greek (transliterated) is "Helkuo". It means to "draw, drag off" or to "draw by inward power, led, impel." It is forced. Here are some other places where the same word is used:


Acts 16:19- And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,


Acts 21:30- And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

John 21:11Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.



John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Whenever John 6:44 is brought up, the Arminian runs to John 12:32. But this attempt is futile. In John 6:44 him who is drawn is also him who is raised up "at the last day". Therefore, if the Arminian wants to say that all are "drawn" he will also have to conclude that all will be raised up on that last day. And if God is drawing everyone, well, then we might as well be Universalists.

 

From the very moment Jesus said "it is finished" unto this day, has everybody that lived in that time span heard the gospel?

 

As to those before Christ how was God revealed to them?

Jews:

You know, I have to correct myself...."All men" means "all men"....

 

Yes, either indirectly or directly....

Rom 2:14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law (Torah), do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them. 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes (not just the "elect") in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”

16 However, they did not all heed (accept) the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world.”

 

God's Spirit either works though "what was created" (see Rom 1:20) or directly through the written word - the Holy Scriptures.

John 1: There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He (John) came as a witness, to testify about the Light (Jesus), so that all might believe through him. 8 He (John) was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light (Jesus). 9 There was the true Light [Jesus] which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

"All men" have been enlightened by God's Spirit concerning Christ.

 

Indirectly? Huh? The Romans 1 passage is dealing with natural revelation. This natural revelation does not tell sinners of the death, burial and resurrection of the Christ.

Not everyone has heard the gospel. Missionaries have witnessed to tribes who knew not about the Christ before being witnested to, so neither did their deceased descendants.

 

Pure mysticism....

 

You need to read the rest about what Paul says about "natural revelation":

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, ...24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Footnotes:

 

Natural revelation tells all there is a god. But it does not tell them there is the Christ. Without knowing the Christ, they can not know God. See John 14:6.

 

The Sprit works through the word to save ppl is what I am saying.

I am not calling the bible "pure mysticism".

 

So what does God do? He works through their conscience...through what was created. Yes, it's always better to hear the complete gospel, but God's salvation is not diminished because some do not hear the full and complete story.

I would say Calvinists, and their "Four and no more" self-righteous attitude have more to worry about in the judgment than the ignorant savages in the jungles.

 

You are limiting the way the Spirit works....He doesn't work only through the Bible...if He did many would be lost. I see that "four and no more" Calvinistic attitude shining forth in your replies.

 

No. You are going past what the Bible avers.

Now, a tribe in Africa without a bible and without knowledge of the Christ. Can they be saved?

 

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Again, the Calvinist and their "four and no more" heresy is why there's confusion.

Again, "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."