Featured "Make your calling and election sure"....Huh?

Seeming does not make it so. Scripture looks to a salvation that is completed, a faith that endures, because it is "according to His great mercy" that God has "caused us to be born again to a living hope" "to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled." "protected by the power of God", "obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls."

You are comparing apples to oranges, holding to a different definition of what it means to be "saved". Of course it seems to you that salvation can be lost. You are looking at the heart of men, which Scripture describes as deceitful and wicked. In Matthew Jesus gives a warning that should cause a fear: many will come, on "that day", who have taught, preached, cast out demons, performed signs, and participated in the ministry of the Kingdom of God. These emphatically acknowledge Jesus as Lord and God has used them for His purposes. Yet, they were never known by Christ. They were never "in Christ", although they seem to have thought they were. Examine your life. Is your faith one that endures? Has God "through His great mercies...caused [you] to be born again to a living hope" or are you "born again" through your own religious experience and convictions? Do you have a faith that is "protected by the power of God...obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your soul" or do you have a faith that is dependent on your works and your will?

I do not believe that there are many Calvinist on this board who would not agree, if they held your conviction of what salvation means, that this salvation can be lost. Likewise, when Scripture looks at that final salvation "obtained" as the outcome of our faith, I doubt many Arminians would argue against this faith being salvific.

Put another way, you see a temporary salvation because you are looking at a temporary faith. Within that temporary faith there are people who have the faith to endure (God "through His great mercies caused [them] to be born again", "protected by the power of God" so as to obtain"as the outcome of their faith the salvation of [their] soul") and there are people who come into a knowledge, but never a true faith. And often (most of the time) Paul addresses the church in this manner (as a congregation, it is comprised of converted and unconverted believers). Calvinists, on the other hand, look to true salvation as one that endures. Scripture, while often addressing the congregation as potentially including those who will depart from the faith, typically speaks of salvation itself as the faith which endures. This is eternal life.

 

I do not understand why this doctrine seems so difficult for you to understand. We must "run the race" and "endure". No one denies that. But Peter clearly presents there as being a faith that obtains the outcome of "the salvation of our souls", and Paul clearly teaches that there is a faith that "endures", and John teaches that there is a faith that "perseveres", and Jesus teaches that there is a faith that results in everlasting life.

It is impossible for a man to have a faith that endures unto the end, yet also have a faith that does not endure to the end. Your logic is flawed, therefore you need to rethink your position.

 

I agree that God doesn't force anyone to "remain in His hand". Belief does not work that way (if you are shown the truth of something, then you believe it because you know it to be true....you may not like it, you may not want it, but you believe it). This is why we are told to make sure we have a faith that endures. As John stated (and you deny), those who left the us were among us, but never truly a part of us.

More to the point - Faith that endures is faith that endures, not faith that does not endure.

Your post is, ultimately, nonsense. If you believe otherwise, then please explain:

If I have a faith that endures unto the end, but my faith does not endure to the end, then how did I have a faith that endured unto the end?

 

I understand that you have been cornered (you made a statement that was not logical, you cannot defend that logic). We’ve all be there at times. I will, however, caution you not to simply strike out (although this is the typical response, we’ve all done this at some point as well). You , not I, are the one who stated that there is an "enduring faith" that in fact does not endure. And yes, that is nonsense.

People can choose a faith and walk away from that faith, I agree:

You are right that there are some people who hold a Christian faith that they can abandon at any given moment. What holds them in “God’s hand” is their decision to believe. I am saying that these people are not in God’s hand, they do not believe in terms of what Scripture calls a “faith that endures”.

I believe some theological positions out of choice (I’ve weighed the evidence and decided they were true….and they have changed over time). I believe a sports team the best. I follow authors, poets, actors, etc. along the same lines...choice.

And people choose religious beliefs. They choose to believe Scientology, Christianity, Mormonism, etc. And they remain in those faiths by their own choice. They can walk away anytime they decide. I agree with you.

BUT there is another type of believe. There is a faith that endures.

I chose my spouse. I did not choose to believe that we were married. I did not choose to believe I was born, that my parents were my parents, that I belonged to my family. I did not choose to believe fire is hot, ice is cold, and the reality of gravity. These things have been revealed by experience to be true. I cannot choose to disbelieve them.

And, while I did choose repentance and belief (I believe by the drawing of the Spirit), I did not choose to believe what was revealed to me as truth. This type of belief simply does not work that way.

The Warning and Your Idea of Belief

You illustrate a tragic truth. Some people believe in Christ with a faith that they can walk away from at any given time. They believe with all of their minds, and maybe with all of their will, but not with all of their heart and being. The truth of the gospel has not been revealed to them, and they do not have a faith that endures. It may last until they die, but it does not endure until the end because it is lost in the refining. Jesus does not know them. They are there by choice and they can walk away.

But there are some people who, having believed, possess a faith that will endure. The gospel has been revealed to them as true. They have been “converted”, not outwardly but spiritually in a way that they cannot…even if it was their desire (an oxymoron)…deny the truth of it. These are “born again”.

My heart breaks for those who are truly lost, who remain in the faith out of their own choice and desire, but who will hear, on that day, those horrible words “I never knew you”. I am not talking about those, like you, who hold a confused doctrine but those who truly remain what they see as “in Christ” by the power of their own choice. These live their lives dedicated to the religion of Christ, but never know Him out of the hardness of their own hearts. They will not believe with an enduring faith because they will not humble themselves, they will not surrender, they will not give up their choice to disbelieve by turning to the One who will reveal to them the Truth that can’t be denied or proven false.

 

If salvation is based on your consent, then Ephesians 2:8-9 is false.

 

No, I don't "got it" because I don't see one Scripture verse anywhere that says that consent is called faith.

 

No, we are talking about something quite important. If you stand on a doctrine, it must be able to be supported. So show me where consent = faith.

 

Yes. If we have the type of faith that is of God, the power of the gospel revealed to us as truth, then we will be saved. It is that type of faith. All other forms of "belief" fall short.