Flip side of thi issue is that God completes our salvation process, so the reall ysaved will really endure, NONE ever ge saved and then lost! Romans 8
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"Make your calling and election sure"....Huh?
- Thread starter AndThisGospel
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AndThisGospel
Member
Okay, so let me sum this up:
God forced salvation on you - that is, you had no choice?
If so, then sure you can't be lost because no matter what you want He is going to override you and force salvation on you.
The problem is that He loves unconditionally. Hence if He forces salvation on you than He has to force salvation on everyone. He is no respecter of persons.
God chose to save me, and He made me able to freely respond to Him, so he did not rape me into the Kingdom, as Robb Bell and others have staed!
Recently this has been an often seen question/statement around here. But no one has yet surfaced (to my knowledge) who believes God forces salvation on anyone, or that we have no choice (either to believe or not to believe). The belief is foreign to Calvinism, Primitive Baptists, Armininianists, Amyraldianism, Lutherans, Southern Baptists, Free Will Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians,....maybe "Two Seed In the Spirit Predestination Baptists"...but they reject the idea God forces salvation on people and there are only a 3 or 4 congregations left (in the world...and they are not even megachurches...they are tiny).
So I have to ask...do you know of any denomination that teaches God forced salvation on men, that men have no choice...or are you just making things up?
Does God take away His gift of faith?
1 Timothy 1
[14]Oh, how generous and gracious our Lord was! He filled me with the faith and love that come from Christ Jesus.
Romans 4
[16]So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift.
1 Timothy 1
[14]Oh, how generous and gracious our Lord was! He filled me with the faith and love that come from Christ Jesus.
Romans 4
[16]So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift.
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AndThisGospel
Member
Here's a good translation:
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. NKJV
AndThisGospel
Member
No, but you can throw it away and count "the blood of the covenant by which" you were set apart as "a common thing" and "trample the Son of God underfoot". If not, then God rapes the will....But that's the God you present isn't it?
You can deny your adoption, but that doesn't mean you aren't adopted.
Why do you toss grace away and continually go back to the law? It's such a Galatians like thing to do. Yet, Paul bemoans such teaching and wishes that those who teach maintaining salvation by works would emasculate themselves. How you doing down there? [emoji57]
I teach solo gratia.
You keep crying about translations. That's so funny. Truth is, you want to go to translations where you can obscure the interpretation and teach salvation by works.
The great thing is that even in your preferred version, God does all the work of saving Paul.
Sola gratia.
IMO, the warnings are there so God's elect (chosen ones)
will heed them and remain faithful until the end.
I point them out to people for this very reason.
However, it is difficult for us to know who is a true believer and who is a false believer.
The wheat and tares both exist together in the kingdom.
IMO, there are different levels of faith ... 2 extremes are:
saving faith, and false faith not genuine enough to endure and save.
Think that IF one held to real free will, and saw tha as bsi to getting saved, our deciion saved me, no election as God determing my salvtion, then they would see it as salvation against my will, as thy see us having no say in the matter!
Colossians 1
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Jesus Christ is Creator and Sustainer. Every living person was created through Jesus Christ, so everyone relationship with Jesus started at their creation.
Every single person came into being and continues to live through Jesus Christ.
2 peter 1
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5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
RESPONSE: Nope Pete, I don't have to supply my faith anything. Don't have to make my election sure. God makes my election sure. Peter your nothing but a filthy rag and everything you do is a filthy rag. This letter you wrote is a filthy rag. Me practicing anything is a filthy rag. Its up to God. because everything he made is a filthy rag.
2 peter 2
1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
Response: Jesus didn't buy false teachers, he bought filthy rags. They can' exploit me they can't do nothing to me because I'm just a filthy rag. Have a great day Pete, you filthy rag.
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Jesus Christ is Creator and Sustainer. Every living person was created through Jesus Christ, so everyone relationship with Jesus started at their creation.
Every single person came into being and continues to live through Jesus Christ.
2 peter 1
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5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
RESPONSE: Nope Pete, I don't have to supply my faith anything. Don't have to make my election sure. God makes my election sure. Peter your nothing but a filthy rag and everything you do is a filthy rag. This letter you wrote is a filthy rag. Me practicing anything is a filthy rag. Its up to God. because everything he made is a filthy rag.
2 peter 2
1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
Response: Jesus didn't buy false teachers, he bought filthy rags. They can' exploit me they can't do nothing to me because I'm just a filthy rag. Have a great day Pete, you filthy rag.
[emoji41]
Did you get my PM Brother?
All sinners werethen reconciled back t Godalready then? God said make our election sure, but you deny God said that? All are born into sin, have sin natures, how can all be with Chriust thn?
The Borg now on the board![emoji41]
Areyou disagreeing that God wanted us to mae our elcion sure, orthat we were not all recociled aready back to God in death of Christ?
Hebrews 1
2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
Every living thing including every person on earth is upheld by the word of Jesus Christ.
Paul delivered message to Pagans who rejected him.
Acts 17
25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;
26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
Paul tells the Pagans God gives them life and breath, applied grace in which they would seek God, to grope for him and find him. What can be visualized is a man in the dark with his arms swinging around to look for God.
Paul tells pagans we are his children. And more importantly "in Him we live and move and exist".
Acts 17
30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”
To who is God declaring? What is God declaring? The audience is pagans who later reject Paul.
The declaration is that all people everywhere SHOULD repent. Why didn't he say God is declaring to men that all people WILL repent?
When he judges the world is that just some of it?
1 Corinthians 8
6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
We are sustained by Jesus Christ. We are created by Jesus Christ. We exist through Jesus Christ.
When he died, ALL DIED. Because all existence depends on and exists THROUGH HIM.
The next time you see any person whether you judge them elect or not, That person came into being and continues to live through Jesus Christ.
Would you care to see an in-depth explanation of just how this is so very true?
Incredible.
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