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Featured "I have kept the faith"...

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by AndThisGospel, Feb 6, 2017.

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  1. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    Eph 2:8,9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

    The pronoun "it" isn't speaking of faith. If so, we must render Paul's statement as follows:

    For [faith] is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, [faith] is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

    The pronoun "it" refers to the context: "4...God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive in Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."

    The "it" refers to God's work in Christ. Otherwise "faith" becomes the Savior instead of Christ.
     
    #61 AndThisGospel, Feb 13, 2017
  2. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    Here's your theology in a nutshell: God is going to believe for me....That means God believes in God. Does that make sense? No! So God isn't going to believe for you. You must exercise faith towards God. Faith in Christ allows Him to present you in Himself perfect and blameless! Have you got it?
     
    #62 AndThisGospel, Feb 13, 2017
  3. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    Faith must always have an object; our faith must be in someone or something. And the object of genuine faith is always Christ. Nothing must take His place, not even our faith.
     
    #63 AndThisGospel, Feb 13, 2017
  4. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    Okay, MennoSoat, I stand corrected. See the following:

    You are right on this one.
     
    #64 AndThisGospel, Feb 13, 2017
  5. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Nope. Try again. Your take on how I understand God's word is in wackadoodle land.

    Let me lay it out for you.
    1) There is none righteous, not even one. In our unrighteousness we are "dead in our trespasses and sins." We will never, ever, willfully seek out God and want to be surrounded by His holiness. We will always hide or hate God's presence. We always place ourselves on the throne.
    2) If God does not intervene, we will always be self-consumed and glorify our selves over God.
    3) God is rich in mercy in that while I am stll a sinner, God pardons me by grace.
    4) My response to God's grace is one of great joy as God gives me the faith to believe that His pardon and atonement are actually real and given to me.
    5) Faith is the natural response or the reconciled person. It comes after God, by His grace, makes us alive in Christ Jesus.

    Your version is a version of works salvation apart from grace. It is a different gospel than what is taught in the Bible.
     
    #65 MennoSota, Feb 13, 2017
  6. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Paul wrote the entire book of Hebrews to the Hebrews. this is who the book is addressed to. The Hebrews are a special people in that they were the first to receive God's word. They are His chosen people. We cannot claim what is written the Hebrews as being written to us all.
    Paul was warning those new believers that they need to check them selves regularly for a deceitfull heart. It's like checking your self to make sure the Holy Spirit resides with in you. If He does you should not have a deceitful heart.

    When I was newly saved I sometimes had trouble believing that Christ would save a wretch such as my self. I wasn't what I thought was a good selection. This was before I understood that Salvation is a process that goes on for your entire life. We are all a work in progress towards the likeness of Christ. None of us will be perfect in this life although we are growing toward perfection. When we meet Christ in the air on resurrection day we will be perfected and in His likeness. This is when we receive a new body one with out sin.
    MB
     
    #66 MB, Feb 13, 2017
  7. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    Okay, you've won me over here...I didn't agree fully, but I think you are right here.

    I agree...

    I agree....

    Some minor changes and we can agree:
    • God gives me "a measure of faith".
    • What I receive is based on the holy history of Christ.

    I partially agree. Some of your terminology refers not to justification by faith, but the gospel. E.G., you said that faith comes about because God, by His grace, makes us alive "in Christ". Eph 2:5 & 6 refers to our redemption "in Christ" before you were even born. Hence is refers to the gospel and not reception of the gospel, i.e., justification by or through faith.

    Where am I presenting salvation by works?
     
    #67 AndThisGospel, Feb 13, 2017
  8. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    This concept is foreign to Paul's theology!

    Rom 3:9 What then? Are we (the Jews) better than they (the Gentiles)? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one"

    Both Jews and Gentiles are sinners and both need Christ. The Jew doesn't get heaven by works and the rest of us by grace. That's pure baloney.

    I can't find this idea, within the context, that these believers were new to the faith....

    That's based on the idea that the believer doesn't have a sinful nature after conversion. Romans chapter 7 proves that idea to be wrong.
     
    #68 AndThisGospel, Feb 13, 2017
  9. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    According to the Calvinist God only saved "the elect". This is referred to as "limited atonement". The reason? Because God doesn't give "all men" a measure of faith.

    Well, what does Romans 12:3 state?

    KJV: "God hath dealt to every man (not just "the elect") the measure of faith."
     
    #69 AndThisGospel, Feb 13, 2017
  10. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    In defense of Good Works.

    All Good works are GOD GIVEN, GOD INSPIRED, GOD DIRECTED, GOD COMMANDED, GOD DESIRED, and LOVE.

    Else they are Evil Works.

    Calling something Evil Good and something Good Evil is a sin. The Pharisees tried to disqualify Jesus' good works by saying it was diabolic in origin, exactly how a some here would say if they saw an atheist give his life to save another.


    Matthew 12

    22Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw. 23All the crowds were amazed, and were saying, “This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?” 24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
    25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26“If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?

    So the comeback here for Jesus was not "i'm divine and my source is good" but rather if I'm evil doing good things then Satan is divided against himself.



    Matthew 12
    33“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. 34“You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35“The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.

    In other words get your story straight concerning GOOD WORKS.

    Good works, LOVE GOD and LOVE NEIGHBOR. I rather do that once for 5 minutes.

    You can keep salvation, paradise and eternity.
     
    #70 utilyan, Feb 13, 2017
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