Featured Where was Lazarus?

Lazarus was in Hell/Hades/grave, where everyone who dies goes. There he awaited resurrection.

Abraham's bosom is part of a parable.

 

Parables are allegorical stories, by definition. y. Jesus was teaching one of his favorite subjects, Replacement theology, which is not about where we go after death.

 

Scripture uses these terms in distinguishable difference, they are not all three identical in meaning and use.

Prior to the Cross, yes.

Now only the lost go to Hades.

Actually, he awaited Redemption.

As did all Old Testament Saints.

Its not a parable. The Bosom of Abraham was a literal destination for the departed dead, primarily the Just.


God bless.

 

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[fn] “O Death, where is your sting?[fn]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[fn]

Is this passage inclusive of NT saints? From whence is the victory?

 

Hell and grave are both standard translations of Hades. It's not scripture that distinguishes them, it's the translator that does.

I get the impression that everyone goes to Hades. The gates of Hades will not prevail against the church, meaning Christians will be liberated from Hades in the resurrection. For Judgement day, Hades gives up its dead and whoever is not found in the book of life is thrown into the lake of fire, meaning others are saved.

From what verses do you conclude only the lost go to Hades? The Lake of Fire, not Hades, is the destination of the lost.

The only mention of the Bosom of Abraham is a parable, and parables by definition are non-literal. And, <cough> the parable is not about where dead people go.

 

“And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

It appears to me that it is when 1 Cor 15:55 takes place, in a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, is when the gates of Hades ceases from prevailing against the church of God. O death where thy sting, O Hades where thy victory.

 

It actually includes all of the redeemed, both Old and New Testament Saints, for all will be glorified, though the context of this passage has the Rapture in view.

The victory over death refers primarily to the current physical conditions in the fallen world.

The power death holds over men will continue until it is cast into Hell:


Revelation 20:12-15

King James Version (KJV)


12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


There will be no death in the Eternal State that we know of.

The victory was won by Jesus Christ.


God bless.

 

You said...

Baptist Brother said: ↑

Lazarus was in Hell/Hades/grave,


You are welcome to show me where "grave" means Hell or Hades, and we will discuss the verses.

Lazarus could not be "...in Hell/Hades/grave" at the same time, as the concepts differ greatly in Scripture, and...

...the story (not parable) of the Rich Man and Lazarus does not have him in three places.

Then you might be interested in this:



2 Corinthians 5:6-8

King James Version (KJV)


6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:


7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight


8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.



When Saints died prior to the Cross they went to Hades/Sheol, which in Jewish tradition was also called the Bosom of Abraham and Paradise.

When Saints die now they go to be with the Lord.

It was not until Christ eternally redeemed the Old Testament Saint that they were taken to Heaven. Here are a few verses to consider in regards to that:


Hebrews 9

King James Version (KJV)

6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.


7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:


8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


The Tabernacle was a representation of the Holiest of All, that is, the presence of God in reality. Man could come only into His presence through this shadow. See the link, here we see a "parable."

He goes on to say...


11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;


12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:


14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


So he makes the point that the service practiced by men according to the Law was not what brought about man's entrance to God's presence (nor were men redeemed on an eternal basis through animal sacrifice).


24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


So the contrast here is the Holy Place here on earth and the true Holiest of All, which is where Christ went.

Now let's see how we too go there:



Hebrews 10:19-20

King James Version (KJV)


19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,


20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


By the blood/death.sacrifice/offering of Christ.

No man entered into the Lord's presence at death prior to the Cross, though we can take Paul's word for it that when we die now we do.

Two primary possibilities as to the meaning of "the Gates of Hades" I see as likely. First, it is simply a Jewish euphemism for death itself (as found in Jewish tradition (which we cannot entirely ignore seeing the Lord spoke of Hades rather than Sheol, meaning He allowed for popular understanding and phrases)).

Secondly, it could be viewed as an offensive position against death in the spiritual sense.

But what I see as not very realistic is an interpretation that it speaks of Christians being liberated from Hades. Perhaps you could supply Scripture that alludes to Christians going to Hades, and denies Paul's statement.

I take the view that it is quite likely that no-one that stands before that judgment are "saved." Salvation takes place, for both the Old and New Testament believer...while they are alive.

When Christ taught about gehenna, He was speaking about Hell, the Lake of Fire. And you are correct, Hell is the destination of the Lost, but they do not go there at death now, even as the Rich Man did not.

The first person cast into Hell is the Antichrist (that we are told about, anyway), followed by the false prophet:



Revelation 19:19-20

King James Version (KJV)


19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


But the rest of the dead are yet to be dealt with. This is why "Hades is cast into Hell."


Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)



4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


The "dead" referred to here refers in all probability to exactly what it states...the rest of the dead. In view is the glorification of Tribulation Martyrs, who are resurrected (most probably in glorified bodies), but the rest of the dead are not resurrected until the thousand years expire. While it is possible that those who die during the Millennial Kingdom may go into Hades and await judgment if they live according to the Law written in their hearts but are never regenerated while alive, but I think this unlikely.

Continued...

 

Many view the story of the rich man and Lazarus as a parable, I do not. Proper names are used, and we do not see that in the parables of Christ.

Secondly, parables are very much literal. For example, there is a literal Sower of Seed. There are literal Tares and Wheat. The story given by Christ is a story of two men dying, and it must be maintained within the Age it is given, meaning, the two men died under (the Age of) Law. We see Abraham (a literal historical figure) tell the rich man who it is that the brothers have to keep them from ending up in torment:



Luke 16:27-31

King James Version (KJV)


27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:


28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.


29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.


30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.


31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


This takes place prior to the Cross, and it is not the Gospel of Christ his brothers have to keep them from ending up in torment. It is the Law (Pentateuch) and the Prophets. Both sufficient for a man to escape torment (in that Age).

In Luke 24 Christ will expound upon Himself from the Law, Prophets, and the Psalms.

The teaching is very much about where dead people go, lol.

And you should take something for that cough. I recommend 2 Corinthians and call upon the Lord in the morning...





God bless.

 

"Oh grave [Hades] where is they victory" KJV
Shalt be brought down to the grave [twice]
The gates of the grave shall not prevail against it.
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments.
Thou wilt not leave my soul in the grave neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Christ, that his soul was not left in the grave
The keys of the grave and of death.
Behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and the grave followed with him.
The grave delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and the grave were cast into the lake of fire.

That's every appearance of Hades from KJV, where I've inserted "the grave" for Hades/Hell, except in the first example, where the KJV says grave. Only one example promotes the popular concept of Hell as a place of punishment for the wicked. And, that one example is a PARABLE. We see Hell/hades/grave is only temporary and people are there before they are judged. Jesus went to Hades, not to preach, but because he was dead. Christians go to Hades, but the grave will not hold them.

The Lake of Fire is the punishment for the wicked, not Hades.

Are you trolling? Not three places, three names for the same thing.

I'm not interesting in you spamming verses.

Hades or Sheol? Using your trolling logic, when saints died prior to the cross, they didn't go to two places.

Sheol it the Hebrew word for grave. Bosom of Abraham doesn't exist, except in a parable. Paradise is where we go after our resurrection. The verses you spammed didn't mention Paradise, let alone when we go there (before or after our resurrection).

Do you think the our resurrection is immediate upon death?

Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. Even assuming God is limited in time as we are, and that no man entered the Lord's presence before Christ's death, I don't see any relevance. I can completely agree with it, and it makes no difference to anything I've said.

Jesus spoke in Greek, so he used the word Hades, rather than the Hebrew equivalent. All his Jewish audience would have understood Hades as the grave, as Sheol. Hades is the word used in the popular Greek translation of the Old Testament used by the Jews at the time. The numerous mentions of Hades in the Old Testament are without the concept of just the lost going there. On the contrary, the Old Testament treats it as the cold and silent grave, and the souls sleeping there and knowing nothing.

Death is mentioned numerous times in the Bible, where is "gates of Hades" ever used as an euphemism for it? What does "offensive position against death" mean? The meaning is clear, Christians will overcome death, i.e. leave Hades. Gates are the accesses of a cemetery, and proverbially keep the dead in their graves.

Sorry, I missed the statement of Paul saying Christians don't go to Hades. It wasn't in any of the verses you spammed.

At the top of this post are several verses that imply Christians go to Hades.

The Bible teaches that everyone will face judgement after resurrection. Hades -- the grave -- gives up its dead and then they are judged. Those who names are not found in the book of life are cast into the Lake of Fire. God will rise everyone from the grave, then some will live, and the rest will be condemned.

You think the rich man went to a kind of painful purgatory, for some pointless, and unbiblical reason. But, he didn't go anywhere because it was just a parable. (The rich man represents the Jews who were replaced by gentiles as the people of God. The rich man enjoyed God's blessings, but didn't heed Moses and the prophets, so Lazarus then became the subject of God's blessings, and the rich man was turned over to torment.)

The Valley of Hinnom, Gehenna, is not Hades. Lazarus went to Hades, not Gehenna.

 

A proper name makes a story not a parable? By what mechanism does a name make a story literal?

The Bible says Jesus spoke in parables. The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is tucked into a string of parables. If the story is literal rather than just illustrating a principle, what's the point of having in the Bible. If it's literal, how is it there's no other mention in the entire Bible about dead saints going to Abraham's Bosom, even though there is a great number of verses about where dead people go?

The only reason you think this parable is literal is make Abraham's Bosom a literal place (even though the phrase itself is plainly a figure of speech).

Does that mean you think the story of The Three Little Pigs is literal because there actually are pigs and wolves? Are you sure the story of the seed sower is literal, given that no proper name is used? In reality, the parable of sowing seeds is not literal, even if there's a such thing as people sewing seeds.

Yes, we see Abraham and the rich man, a descendant of Abraham, speaking of the rich man's brothers, meaning the Jews, who are also destined to eternal punishment for rejecting Christ, because they didn't listen to Moses and the prophets who foretold of Christ.

Let's take it literally, that Abraham's Bosom really is a real place, where do you get that it's a place before the resurrection, from the story? You still have no case, even if we assume it's literal. In the Parable Lazarus died. He could have gone to Hades, and after the resurrection went to Abraham's Bosom where the story now takes place. The other Lazarus died and Jesus resurrected him out of Hades, back into the world.

 

Not sure why you would insert "grave" for Hades. Might be a good idea to look at the original language.

Do you always debate using a translation convenient to your points?

And if you consult the original language, you will find that Hell is taught about quite often, and distinguished from Hades, which was my original point.

Sorry, no, it is a story about two men who died, both going into Sheol/Hades.

Again, it is not Hell/Hades/Grave, these are distinctive concepts. It is up to you to come to understand that.

According to Christ Hades is very much torment. You might try reading it again:



Luke 16:22-23

King James Version (KJV)


22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;


23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


Notice that the Rich Man is not said to be in the Grave, he is not said to be in gehenna Hell, he is said to be in Hades, and is said to be in torment.

That is up to you decide. Oh wait...you already have.

More fun for me...

These are three distinct concepts in Scripture, and the reason why you do not fully understand that is apparently you have not yet understood that you must distinguish Old Testament revelation from New Testament Revelation.

You need to do that, or...you will end up embracing the theology of cults. You already do to a certain extent, in your belief that believers go to Hades when they die.

That remains to be seen. I think we will see quite the opposite.

All went into Sheol, which divided the just from the unjust according to Christ in His teaching in Luke 16.

While David, who was limited in his knowledge of the afterlife (compared to Bible Students who have the New Testament), may have viewed Sheol as the Grave, we know that it was not the Grave in view:


Psalm 16:10
King James Version (KJV)


10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.



Acts 2:26-27
King James Version (KJV)

26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


While the Old Testament Saint did not understand as we do, what we can say is that Christ did not just sit in the grave for three days. Give that some thought.

It does exist in Jewish tradition, as I said.

Sorry, no, the just were redeemed from Hades at the time of the Cross, and believers go to Heaven to be with the Lord when they die now. You ignored the Scripture already given, so I will present another:



Acts 7:55-59
King James Version (KJV)

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.


Continued...

 

Let me know if you want to actually talk about it.

There are only three mentions of Paradise that I know of in Scripture and each has to be looked at in its context, all three in differing Ages (The Age of Law, The Age of Grace, and the Eternal State).

Of course not.

We (the Church) will be resurrected at the Rapture, the Tribulation Martyrs are resurrected at the end of the Tribulation, and believers are either glorified at death during the Millennial Kingdom or are resurrected during a general resurrection at the end of it.

No, actually Christ was slain roughly two thousand years ago. That this was the intention of God is presented in the statement.

That is why He said He had to come (in the flesh).

Not yet.

It makes quite a deal of difference. There is not an equal meaning to Hell, Hades, and the Grave.

Except in the theology of cults.

As to what language He spoke, I will only say that it is most probable He spoke all languages, lol. The point is that the texts are written in Greek, and it is a safe assumption that the Lord validates the concept of Sheol being called Hades. His audience would not have "understood Hades as the grave," because the concept of Hades is a concept of an existence after death, and a place where the dead go.

There is no mention of Hades in the Old Testament. While Hades may be used in the Septuagint, that does not mean we insert a term from a different period into the texts. It isn't there, though the concept is similar.

You need to understand that the Old Testament concept was limited, however, it is exceeds your own doctrine...

...soul sleep.

Which is a doctrine of cults, not Biblical Doctrine.


Continued...

 

I never said it was mentioned in Scripture, but in Jewish Tradition. The question is, was that what the Lord meant. He certainly didn't violate His Own Word and mean to imply Soul Sleep.

Try to address what I say and you won't waste our time.

And I would ask...you think New Jerusalem is a cemetery?

No problem, I will show it again:


2 Corinthians 5
King James Version (KJV)


6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:


7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight


8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


By the way, if you read this passage carefully you will see that what Paul is saying is that he is desiring the Rapture, that is, to receive the glorified body...without dying.

There isn't a single verse that states Christians go to Hades, lol.

Please present one.

Actually the Bible teaches that all men face judgment after death.

I don't know about you but my judgment has been placed on Christ (in the eternal perspective, which is what the Great White Throne is all about).

And you won't find those who are alive in Christ there, my friend.

Even for those who deny the Rapture, you still have to deal with the Tribulation Martyrs:


Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)


4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.



The Tribulation Martyrs are distinguished from the rest of the dead. They were dead too, yet they were resurrected. The rest of the dead...were not. Not for a thousand years, anyway.

This is true. Now the question that comes up is "When are men placed in the Book of Life?" If you say at salvation, then you must account for those who are blotted out.

But lets stick with your problem of Soul Sleep for the time.


Continued...

 

That's funny, Scripture is a little more complex in regards to the Resurrection.

We have the Resurrection which takes place at the Rapture, the Resurrection and Rapture of the Two Witnesses, the Resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs, and then quite possibly the resurrection of those who were declared just during the Millennial Kingdom.

I think you might want to be careful about throwing around the word inbiblical and using Catholic terms with me, my friend.

Based on your embrace of Soul Sleep alone you have cast yourself as doubtfully a Baptist. I know of no Baptist group that embraces Soul Sleep, but calls it what it is...a doctrine that arose from cults.

Maybe you go to a Baptist Church, I don't know, but that doesn't make one a Baptist any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

Now you say that the Lord's teaching had no meaning?

The Lord states the rich man went to Hades and Lazarus into the Bosom of Abraham, that's good enough for me.

Not sure you realize just how ignorant a statement this is.

Gentiles did not replace the Jews. If you go back and read you will see that Jews were born again just as well as Gentiles.

Then go back a little further in the promises of God and note that God's Promise is for all families of the earth.


Continued...

 

So the blessings of God equate to material possessions? Seems to me that God has blessed many saints through tribulation in this world.

Are you a health/wealth Baptist?

Correct.

The point was that the Lord distinguishes the Age in which these two men died, and the revelation avaiilable to them at the time.

You think one that undergoes hardship is not blessed of God?

Right. He was in Hades, and the Lord illustrates this place as a place of torment.

You catch on quick.

That was the original point I made.




God bless.

 

Give me an example of a parable that uses a literal person or names are given.

Secondly, jumping ahead a little, you say...

...so show me anywhere in the Lord's teachings that He speaks about what is not real.

Doesn't mean everything He taught was a Parable.

Was the teaching of the Comforter a Parable?

Was the teaching of the place He was going and the place He went to prepare...a Parable?

Its not "tucked into a string of parables...it is followed by His teaching of His Return.

This is perhaps the least understandable statement you have made.

The Bible only illustrates principles?

This is a great question.

The single-most important thing you will ever do as a Bible Student is learn to distinguish between the Ages and place the revelation relevant to each Age in its proper context.

If "the Bosom of Abraham" is meant to designate the place of the just dead, then as I mentioned before we see the Lord incorporating traditional understanding into His teaching. However, the Old Testament was limited in its teaching about the place of the dead, so if we merge what we now know from the Old Testament into what was not taught then we can get confused.

Saints do not go to Abraham's Bosom when they die Post-Cross...they go to Heaven.

Here is another example of that:



Revelation 7:9-15
King James Version (KJV)

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.


Continued...

 

You think that because you have embraced Soul Sleep.

Did David mean he was going to be buried with his child that had died? Or did he understand there was a conscious existence after he himself died.

Hades and the grave are distinguished here:



Acts 2:27
King James Version (KJV)


27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


His soul, the person, would not be left in Hades, and corruption is a reference to the physical body (he believed he would be resurrected).

My friend, I didn't do it...Christ did.

Name one teaching in which the Lord uses something that is not literal. There is always a literal application to His teachings, because His teachings are Truth.

If someone told me a story of three little pigs and said one of them was Wilbur (from Green Acres) then I would assume they were telling me a literal story.

Since you want to be sarcastic, lol, I will also ask you a question: do you equate fairy tales...

...with the Bible much?

I'm not the one having a problem with a literal understanding, lol.

Thanks for helping me to make my point.

But for the record, literal names are used:


Matthew 13:37
King James Version (KJV)

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

You really need to step back and consider what it is you are saying.

The Parable of the Sower teaches about a literal process.


Continued...