Where was Lazarus?

[Darrell C]

Is the body we home in the earthly house of tabernacle (home) of verse 1?
Even if this home/tabernacle be dissolved/destroyed, do we still home in it awaiting out house from heaven?

Do we groan in this home/tabernacle wanting the mortality of this home/tabernacle to be swallowed up in life?

Does that sound much like and is speaking of the same thing as: 1 Cor 15:53.54 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. -- The victory of life?
Also as Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.?

Is that the very same groaning that is taking place in 2 Cor 5:4?

The answer to all is yes.

Paul is speaking of the glorified body, and what he states is that we desire to be in that body but that does not mean we desire to be...dead.

He is in fact stating a desire to be raptured.

Do these take place at the same moment in time; the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

For the Church, yes, but not for all of the Saints. The Church is taken up prior to the Tribulation, and the next Resurrection is the Resurrection and rapture of the Two Witnesses, then the Resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs.

There is what could be considered a "general" resurrection following the Millennial Kingdom, at which point at the very least we are told that the lost/dead/unjust are raised to stand before the Great White Throne Judgment.

It should be carefully noted that only those (in this Age) who are born again are raised in the Rapture, and only those born again during the Tribulation are raised after the Tribulation (though only those who died). Those born again during the Tribulation who physically survive will enter into the Kingdom, and while it may be possible that they are glorified at death, it is also possible they are raised in the general resurrection.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑

This shows even further the lack of understanding you have concerning Scripture. For your information, lol, Abraham himself was a Gentile. Secondly, the Good Samaritan could very well be consider among the just based on his actions, which kept the works of the Law written on his heart, whereas the Jews who passed the wounded man by did not.

You'll have to be talking face to face with God before you have more understanding than I have now. In what way is your declaration that Abraham was a gentile relevant? And, yes, the Good Samaritan represents a Christian virtue, so?

You could just talk with a few Baptists and correct the "undertsanding you have now.

Again I ask...what Baptist group are you affiliated with and does your leadership teach that believers go to Hades when they die now.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

While Hell is used to speak of Hades, that does not negate that there is a concept of eternal judgment that we, in our traditional use of the English word Hell...distinguish from the concept of Hades, which is the equivalent of the Old Testament concept of Sheol.

Yes, so?

That's the focal point of what we are discussing, lol:

Lazarus was in Hell/Hades/grave, where everyone who dies goes. There he awaited resurrection.

Scripture uses these terms in distinguishable difference, they are not all three identical in meaning and use.

You are wrong that "everybody who dies goes there (only in Old Testament Times), you are wrong that everyone who dies goes there to await resurrection, and the focal point...you are wrong to equate Hell, Hades, and the Grave.

You are wrong to say...

Hell and grave are both standard translations of Hades. It's not scripture that distinguishes them, it's the translator that does.

And you have been corrected on that in the case of the Grave.

As pointed out before, there is only one instance of Hades being translated grave in the New Testament, and that is a context of bodily resurrection into glorified form, and does not negate what we are told elsewhere.

Many of which verses have been presented to you.

Here is an few examples:

When Saints died prior to the Cross they went to Hades/Sheol, which in Jewish tradition was also called the Bosom of Abraham and Paradise.

When Saints die now they go to be with the Lord.

It was not until Christ eternally redeemed the Old Testament Saint that they were taken to Heaven. Here are a few verses to consider in regards to that:

Hebrews 9

King James Version (KJV)

6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.


7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:


8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


The Tabernacle was a representation of the Holiest of All, that is, the presence of God in reality. Man could come only into His presence through this shadow. See the link, here we see a "parable."

He goes on to say...


11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;


12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:


14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


So he makes the point that the service practiced by men according to the Law was not what brought about man's entrance to God's presence (nor were men redeemed on an eternal basis through animal sacrifice).


24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


So the contrast here is the Holy Place here on earth and the true Holiest of All, which is where Christ went.

Now let's see how we too go there:



Hebrews 10:19-20

King James Version (KJV)


19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,


20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


By the blood/death.sacrifice/offering of Christ.

No man entered into the Lord's presence at death prior to the Cross, though we can take Paul's word for it that when we die now we do.

I re-post this because you have never discussed it or addressed it, then say...

None of the scripture you quoted supports you.

If not...show why it does not support my view.


Continued...

 

[AndThisGospel]

Look guys, when you insist that something lives on after the death of the body, then you are insisting that the spirit and/or soul lives independent of the body. All three components, body, soul & spirit are interdependent upon each other. When the body dies everything stops.

But the real issue is this: IF you say that something lives on after the death of the believer you are then insisting that something was good in that believer (E.G.., grandma has gone to heaven).

The Apostle Paul said, "I know that in me dwells nothing good". To state that something is good in the believer is a form of self-righteousness. The believer can then make the argument that his body is evil, but his soul and/or spirit is good.

If something in you is good, and independent of the resurrection goes to heaven on its own, then it doesn't need the righteousness of Christ. That means it, the soul and/or spirit, has natural immorality and goodness. Such teaching is pagan.

My two cents...

BTW, I can't debate you on this according to the rules....I am Christian, but I don't belong to a denomination. Neither am I non-denominational .

 

[Darrell C]

Because of a lackadaisical approach such as you have displayed, many have confused themselves and equated the meanings of various concepts in which they under-gird their cultish doctrine.

Your idea that Hades is temporary punishment might be thought of as cultish.

It is a Biblical Doctrine, lol.

You have to agree that men have gone to Hades, right?

And you have to agree that men will be taken from Hades and, if lost...cast into the Lake of Fire, which is not Hades, and is not the Grave.

It's pretty simple to derive a "temporary punishment from Scripture in regards to Hades, and to distinguish between it and Eternal Judgment.

Here is more Scripture you have ignored:

Revelation 19:19-20

King James Version (KJV)


19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


But the rest of the dead are yet to be dealt with. This is why "Hades is cast into Hell."


Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)



4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The Beast and the False Prophet...do not go to Hades.

And at the end of the Millennial Kingdom...



Revelation 20:13-15
King James Version (KJV)

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



Death, Hades, and the Lake of Fire, which is the Hell Christ taught about (gehenna)...

are not the same concepts, but three distinctly different concepts.

See the links. Do a little study.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Two proper names given, which distinguishes it from the parables.

...and the point remains. There is no parable that uses proper names.

Maybe the parable of the ten virgins isn't a parable because I declare that having ten virgins distinguishes it from a parable. Parables don't have 10 virgin

Whether one views it as a parable or not is not the focal point. I don't have a problem with that...most people do.

But what I do take issue with is the nonsense that Believers go to Hades when they die in this Age, and Soul Sleep:

On the contrary, the Old Testament treats it as the cold and silent grave, and the souls sleeping there and knowing nothing.

That is a doctrine of cults and has no place in the Doctrinal Position of a born again believer who has New Testament Revelation.

Old Testament Saints may have treated it this way, but Scripture does not. The understanding of the Old Testament Saint was limited, but...

...you have no such excuse.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Two proper names given, which distinguishes it from the parables.

...and the point remains. There is no parable that uses proper names.

Maybe the parable of the ten virgins isn't a parable because I declare that having ten virgins distinguishes it from a parable. Parables don't have 10 virgin

It fits with the Parables Christ taught and is properly identified as a parable.

The Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus does not.

But again, it is not something I see as important. If you want to see it as a parable, great. The problem you will have is precisely what you have shown...you try to read into it beyond the intent of the meaning of the teaching.

To the point where you lose all sight of what it was intended to teach you. And because of this, you have adopted the doctrine of cults.

Believers did go to Hades, lol.

Even Jesus went to Hades when he died. At least the Bible says so.

This is true, but, unlike the Old Testament Saint, He went there as the Conqueror of Hades.

Quite a distinction, wouldn't you agree?

But not anymore. I gave you numerous Scriptures and you have ignored every one of them,

None of the scripture you quoted supports you. I don't see how and you often don't even attempt didn't explain how.

All of the Scriptures I quoted support my view.

And until you address them and show why they don't, you will continue to fail to understand what it is you believe, and place that into a Biblical Context.

I don't recall ever giving my own view of this, which is that I take the position that the Gates of Hell in view is a Jewish euphemism for death.

It is death that will not stop the function of the Church in this world.

Do you envision a set of gates chasing you? How would the Gates of Hell stop the function of the church, if somehow they could? Are you trying to get past the gates, into Hell?

What part of my description of my position did you not understand?

It is not Hell in view...it is Hades.

Death has no power in regards to believers, and the gates that once held men in Hades could not hold them in when Christ conquered death, and they no longer hold power over believers that die.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I will give this one for discussion again:


2 Corinthians 5:5-8
King James Version (KJV)

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.



God bless.


Per your typical abuse of the Bible, you quote verses without even attempting to give any explanation of how it supports you.

I did. Had you bothered to address the commentary given as to how this is relevant, we would not be here again wasting time.

Post #30 goes into some detail as to why it is relevant, and your response?

I'm not interesting in you spamming verses.

I will give this one for discussion again:


2 Corinthians 5:5-8
King James Version (KJV)

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.



God bless.


Per your typical abuse of the Bible, you quote verses without even attempting to give any explanation of how it supports you.

I did, it was ignored.

Though this is a fairly cut and dry passage: most don't have trouble understanding what Paul is saying here.

If you're going to give it for discussion, then discuss it.

lol

You read, "to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord". But, what the verse says is "...to be absent from the [mortal] body, AND to be present with the Lord..."

You leave out why he states and. Read it again, and this time leave it in a Biblical Context:



2 Corinthians 5:5-8
King James Version (KJV)

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.



In other words Paul is saying "While we are in this mortal body we are not in the Lord's presence, but we are confident that, when we are absent from the mortal body we will be present with the Lord."

Just not a hard passage to understand, although it might take a little more understanding of resurrection as a whole to understand the Rapture Paul desires.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

In your mind, you change the verse to make it support you.

Not in my mind, lol...in the posts, for anyone to comment on. Again I ask you, what kind of Baptist are you, and does your leadership teach what you believe.

I am beginning to think you may be a "secret agent" for a group that is not Baptist at all.

In reality, the verse doesn't equate being dead with being with God (as in the bosom of Abraham).

First, the Bosom of Abraham does not equate to being in the presence of God.

Secondly, the passage makes it clear that Paul distinguishes between the physical body and the body made in Heaven, which is the glorified body:


2 Corinthians 5
King James Version (KJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.


Being "found naked" is a reference to dying and being in spirit form, rather than having the "house which is from Heaven."

What he is saying is that "We groan, desiring that heavenly body, rather than simply being absent from the physical body, which would leave us naked (without either body)."

Comment on that and we will proceed further in looking at this.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

You shouldn't stop reading at v8. Read through v10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." We are judged before receiving our punishment or reward.

Think of that all by yourself, did you?

You believe we receive punishment or reward before we appear before the judgement seat of Christ.

Depends on the context. My judgment lies in Christ. What you are failing to do is to understand Paul is speaking about our personal deeds/words. Two entirely different issues.

Read through v10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Again, we can distinguish that in view is the physical body, or physical existence, as contrasted with existence without a body, and existence in the heavenly body.

So I have no idea why you think this relevant.

Elsewhere in the Bible, we ready that judgment is after the resurrection.

Great. But let's not take your word for it, how about actually presenting Scripture.

Now the question I would ask you is, if judgment comes after resurrection, rather than death itself (for the Saints)...

...which resurrection do you think judgment comes after?

The resurrection of the Church, the Two Witnesses, the Tribulation Martyrs, or the Dead who are raised after the Millennial Kingdom?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

On every point where we disagree, the Bible agrees with me.

I have yet to see any Scripture, much less have it agree with you.

You're not even correct in the original point I addressed, yet you will not cede the point.

And you have yet to show why the Scripture I have posted does not support my view.

You accomplish absolutely nothing by just spamming verses.

This is just an excuse...not to address the Scripture provided.

We all have opinions, my friend, but opinions have to be kept distinct from Biblical Doctrine. It is my opinion, for example, that The Gates of Hades primarily refers to the concept of death (and the consequences thereof), but, it is a Biblical Doctrine that Believers go to be with God when they die in this Age. It is debated if they did prior to the Cross, but, no Baptist group I know of teaches that Believers go to Hades where they know nothing.

Only cults teach that.

And even if one were ignorant of the New Testament to the point where they thought Soul Sleep were taught in Scripture, we cannot even support a unconscious existence for men in Hades, for it is clear that neither the Rich Man nor Lazarus were in an unconscious sleep.

Well, nothing except to show that you don't understand what you're quoting. For if you did understand, you would be spending your time explaining how the Bible supports you instead of laboring under the delusion that somehow you're actually presenting others with verses they haven't seen before.

I have done that.

You have refused to address what you are now...demanding I do. lol.

So address what I have said, and we will take it from there.


God bless.

 

[AndThisGospel]

Supposedly I can't debate here. I think that's a crazy rule, but it's not my website and therefore I'll stay in my little box!

Anyway, if your not chicken come here: http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/does-fallen-mankind-have-an-immortal-soul.103797/