Partial Preterism – promotion, objections & relevance today.

[kyredneck]

Yeah! It was only the pathetic old transfiguration. Nothing glorious in that.

The coming of the Son of man couldn't have been the transfiguration as it is still yet future in later passages, i.e., Lu 17, Mt 24, Acts 1, etc.

And besides, it's ridiculous for you to imply the Lord would actually be saying, "Some of you will not die within the next six days".

Ain't no way I could rest with that.

Duty calls, have to go.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The coming of the Son of man couldn't have been the transfiguration as it is still yet future in later passages, i.e., Lu 17, Mt 24, Acts 1, etc.

And besides, it's ridiculous for you to imply the Lord would actually be saying, "Some of you will not die within the next six days".

Ain't no way I could rest with that.

Of course it's future in those verses! It's still in the future today! All I'm saying is that the Transfiguration was/is a much bigger thing than you allow for, and it is what our Lord was alluding to in Matt. 16:28, Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27. In each case, the Transfiguration follows immediately.

I might add that Church history seems to be unanimous that of the Apostles, only John survived as long as AD 70, so perhaps the Lord Jesus should have said, "There is one standing here who will not see death till he sees the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." But then it seems that John was pastoring the church at Ephesus, and nothing places him at Jerusalem, so he wouldn't have seen it anyway.

Not conclusive, but another nail in your preterist coffin, not that one is needed.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Oh give me a break. Any bitter attitude I may have is solely toward the heretical Zionism that Dispensationalism has morphed into. You people are the most dangerous cult on earth. All other systems of eschatology are rather benign as to their immediate effect on the human race in general, but there is NOTHING benign about the war mongering of Christian Zionism.

As a side note (BTW I very much agree with you). Add to that the exuberant support of their political system & you have quite a picadillo of antisocial behavior.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Of course it's future in those verses! It's still in the future today! All I'm saying is that the Transfiguration was/is a much bigger thing than you allow for, and it is what our Lord was alluding to in Matt. 16:28, Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27. In each case, the Transfiguration follows immediately.

I might add that Church history seems to be unanimous that of the Apostles, only John survived as long as AD 70, so perhaps the Lord Jesus should have said, "There is one standing here who will not see death till he sees the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." But then it seems that John was pastoring the church at Ephesus, and nothing places him at Jerusalem, so he wouldn't have seen it anyway.

Not conclusive, but another nail in your preterist coffin, not that one is needed.

1st off, he isn't a full preterist----you are misinformed. But I will allow the man to defend himself.

 

[Baptist Brother]

Of course it's future in those verses! It's still in the future today! All I'm saying is that the Transfiguration was/is a much bigger thing than you allow for, and it is what our Lord was alluding to in Matt. 16:28, Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27. In each case, the Transfiguration follows immediately.

As others have observed, it's ridiculous to argue that "some will not die before..." means an event six days later, or an event that immediately follows the Lord's statement. It's a stretch to argue that the Transfiguration is any sort of coming. And, it's totally unsupported that some people standing there did die (which is implied by saying some people will not die). It's not an argument to say that in the synoptic gospels the Transfiguration account follows immediately, these gospels are both very similar and chronological.

I might add that Church history seems to be unanimous that of the Apostles, only John survived as long as AD 70, so perhaps the Lord Jesus should have said, "There is one standing here who will not see death till he sees the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." But then it seems that John was pastoring the church at Ephesus, and nothing places him at Jerusalem, so he wouldn't have seen it anyway.

Jesus traveled with a much larger group than just the Twelve. The others, especially the women, were at much less risk of a premature death.

Not conclusive, but another nail in your preterist coffin, not that one is needed.

That's self-deception. Preterism is alive and healthy. Jesus' comment about some standing there will not taste death before his coming is another nail in the Dispensational coffin.

 

[Yeshua1]

Oh give me a break. Any bitter attitude I may have is solely toward the heretical Zionism that Dispensationalism has morphed into. You people are the most dangerous cult on earth. All other systems of eschatology are rather benign as to their immediate effect on the human race in general, but there is NOTHING benign about the war mongering of Christian Zionism.

How would suppting them as God does be war mongering?

 

[Yeshua1]

As others have observed, it's ridiculous to argue that "some will not die before..." means an event six days later, or an event that immediately follows the Lord's statement. It's a stretch to argue that the Transfiguration is any sort of coming. And, it's totally unsupported that some people standing there did die (which is implied by saying some people will not die). It's not an argument to say that in the synoptic gospels the Transfiguration account follows immediately, these gospels are both very similar and chronological.



Jesus traveled with a much larger group than just the Twelve. The others, especially the women, were at much less risk of a premature death.



That's self-deception. Preterism is alive and healthy. Jesus' comment about some standing there will not taste death before his coming is another nail in the Dispensational coffin.

Don't think Brother Martin holds to Dispy though, as he holds to Covenant theology!

 

[Yeshua1]

Of course it's future in those verses! It's still in the future today! All I'm saying is that the Transfiguration was/is a much bigger thing than you allow for, and it is what our Lord was alluding to in Matt. 16:28, Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27. In each case, the Transfiguration follows immediately.

I might add that Church history seems to be unanimous that of the Apostles, only John survived as long as AD 70, so perhaps the Lord Jesus should have said, "There is one standing here who will not see death till he sees the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." But then it seems that John was pastoring the church at Ephesus, and nothing places him at Jerusalem, so he wouldn't have seen it anyway.

Not conclusive, but another nail in your preterist coffin, not that one is needed.

many see Jhn as writting Revlation 20-25 years after AD 70, and you would think that he would have alluded to that event, but did not!

What good, wha hope, does Pretierism give to Christians really?

 

[Covenanter]

Questions:

Should OC prophecy be understood literally?

Prophecy is best understood in terms of the inspired record of its fulfilment. However as has been pointed out, there is often more than one fulfilment. We should look at the NC for the fulfilment of OC prophecy. In particular, we should study to see how prophecy relates to Christ & all his saving work.

Some Scriptures are indirectly prophetic, in that they describe types & shadows of heavenly realities & of the salvation by Christ. The Passover, priesthood, temple, sacrifices, Davidic kingdom, etc are all described as such. Heb. 8 & 9 teach this, in fact the whole letter teaches the relevance of the OC to the NC.

Apart from the final coming of the Lord for resurrection & judgement, I do not think there are any OC prophecies as yet unfulfilled that are to be fulfilled in the present Gospel age.


Are the Church & Israel separate entities with different prophetic futures?


That is arguable concerning Israel. Most Christians thought that prophecy was being fulfilled when the European Jews were given the land in 1948. We all thought the end would be very soon.

Acts records many thousands of Jews from all round the Empire turning to Christ & being saved, starting with 3,000 on the day of Pentecost. The missionary activities of the Apostles centred on Jewish synagogues. Until Acts 10, the church was largely synonymous with Israel. The great covenant relationship was in evidence:

Zec. 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. 8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

The scattered sheep were regathered. That Scripture indicates that a third of Jews would be saved, & 2/3 would be cut off, as happened in AD 70. (the numbers aren't recorded, but see Revelation, later.)

All Israel would be many more than the 7,000 Paul refers to in Rom. 11, and would include the saved Gentiles who were accepted as Abraham's family.

Did AD 70 complete the fulfillment of all prophecy apart from the final coming?

I believe so. Feel free to list unfulfilled OC prophecy.


Did Jesus come again around AD 70?

Is this the crux of the discussion? Why do we think so, if we do?

Mat. 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation

Mat. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 so likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Notice the judgement on this generation. There can be no doubt from the way Jesus is speaking that AD 70 is in his mind.

Near the end of the 40 years we read Hebrews 3:

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 when your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

The question therefore is not, “Did Jesus come in AD 70?” but how do we understand that repeated prophetic word of the Lord Jesus?

To be continued ….


Is there a prophetic future for ethnic/national Israel?

I think not. It is questionable whether today's Jews are descendants of Abraham. None can prove their ancestry. European Jews are Ashkenazi, & therefore Japhetic, not Semitic.

Gen. 10:1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood. 2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras. 3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.

But there is a glorious future them in the Gospel. But NOT if they wait for rapture/tribulation etc.

2 Cor. 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Whatever we think about prophecy, there is no justification for persecution.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

1st off, he isn't a full preterist----you are misinformed. But I will allow the man to defend himself.

I don't think I said he was. If I did, I didn't mean to.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

As others have observed, it's ridiculous to argue that "some will not die before..." means an event six days later, or an event that immediately follows the Lord's statement. It's a stretch to argue that the Transfiguration is any sort of coming. And, it's totally unsupported that some people standing there did die (which is implied by saying some people will not die). It's not an argument to say that in the synoptic gospels the Transfiguration account follows immediately, these gospels are both very similar and chronological.

Hello B.B. Would you care to compare Matthew 16:28 with 2 Peter 1:16-18? I think you will find that they fit together very well. I do not claim that anybody died at the Transfiguration. Only Peter, James and John were present, so the other apostles and disciples died (eventually) without seeing Christ's 'power and coming.'

That's self-deception. Preterism is alive and healthy. Jesus' comment about some standing there will not taste death before his coming is another nail in the Dispensational coffin.

My comment about coffins was only to wind Kyredneck up a little. Insults concerning Dispensationalists do not affect me since I am not one. I will say though that Dispensationalists are my brothers in Christ as is anyone who is looking forward to His return in glory. KY's aggression towards them is IMO not acceptable.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Why I am not a Preterist

4. The claim that either the kingdom of God or the new covenant began in AD 70 is incorrect.
The KoG began with the start of the Lord Jesus' ministry (Matthew 4:17; Mark 1:15). From that time the kingdom has been advancing with people forcing their way into it (Matthew 11:12). "If I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, surely the kingdom of God has come [aorist, past tense] upon you" (Matthew 12:28).
But of course, in another sense the KoG is not here yet. Whilst on the one hand we are 'seated in the heavenly places' (Ephesians 2:6), on the other we are still working out our salvation in fear and trembling. The Kingdom will not finally come until Christ returns at the end of the age ('Inaugurated Theology').

The New Covenant in Christ's blood started with His death and resurrection. Before AD 70 we are told that God had made the old covenant 'obsolete' (Hebrews 8:13); already, 'neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything.....' (Galatians 5:6; 6:15 etc.). AD 70 may have given the coup de grace to the Old Covenant, but it did not inaugurate the new.

 

[kyredneck]

How would suppting them as God does be war mongering?

How does God support them? We, the USA, supports them. Period. We give them 3.1 billion dollars a year, 8.5 million dollars a day, and that's MONEY WE DON'T HAVE, IT'S BORROWED! WE'RE 20 TRILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT! And we've given them an additional 38 billion dollars in defense funds in 2016, again, money we don't have, it's insane, and all that's just fine with you dispy ignoramuses because "If we don't do it God will curse us". It's insane. Start a thread on this topic over on the Politics Forum, because that's where it belongs. Dispensationalism is no longer a system of theology, it's a theo-political system and Zionism is it's religion. Israel....Israel....Israel...Israel...all about Israel, and anyone who doesn't agree is anti-Semitic.

Blindly supporting the dispossession of property and oppression of an entire people.is inseparable from WAR.

(and I know you're peeking JoJ)

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Kingdom will not finally come until Christ returns at the end of the age ('Inaugurated Theology').

Dementia is clearly catching up with me. I meant to write 'Inaugurated Eschatology.'

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

How would suppting them as God does be war mongering?

How does God support them? We, the USA, supports them. Period. We give them 3.1 billion dollars a year, 8.5 million dollars a day, and that's MONEY WE DON'T HAVE, IT'S BORROWED! WE'RE 20 TRILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT! And we've given them an additional 38 billion dollars in defense funds in 2016, again, money we don't have, it's insane, and all that's just fine with you dispy ignoramuses because "If we don't do it God will curse us". It's insane. Start a thread on this topic over on the Politics Forum, because that's where it belongs. Dispensationalism is no longer a system of theology, it's a theo-political system and Zionism is it's religion. Israel....Israel....Israel...Israel...all about Israel, and anyone who doesn't agree is anti-Semitic.

Blindly supporting the dispossession of property and oppression of an entire people.is inseparable from WAR.

(and I know you're peeking JoJ)

How does God support them? We, the USA, supports them. Period. We give them 3.1 billion dollars a year, 8.5 million dollars a day, and that's MONEY WE DON'T HAVE, IT'S BORROWED! WE'RE 20 TRILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT! And we've given them an additional 38 billion dollars in defense funds in 2016, again, money we don't have, it's insane, and all that's just fine with you dispy ignoramuses because "If we don't do it God will curse us". It's insane. Start a thread on this topic over on the Politics Forum, because that's where it belongs. Dispensationalism is no longer a system of theology, it's a theo-political system and Zionism is it's religion. Israel....Israel....Israel...Israel...all about Israel, and anyone who doesn't agree is anti-Semitic.

Blindly supporting the dispossession of property and oppression of an entire people.is inseparable from WAR.

(and I know you're peeking JoJ)

you know they laugh at us don't you....stupid goy, we are more intelligent than you, we take your money and provide our kids with almost free educations while yours go into dept. You are becoming a third world country while we advance to the top. We view the Palestinians like you viewed your American Indians, to be subjugated and eventually eliminated. And how do I know this, I worked for them and this is how they presented themselves.

 

[kyredneck]

I want to apologize to everyone for my bad manners lately. I will improve my behavior. I want to engage with Martin some more and then I'm going to take a break.

 

[Yeshua1]

you know they laugh at us don't you....stupid goy, we are more intelligent than you, we take your money and provide our kids with almost free educations while yours go into dept. You are becoming a third world country while we advance to the top. We view the Palestinians like you viewed your American Indians, to be subjugated and eventually eliminated. And how do I know this, I worked for them and this is how they presented themselves.

God still will be giving them their land, as its His to give! jerusalem should be captital of israel as God intended!

 

[Yeshua1]

Dementia is clearly catching up with me. I meant to write 'Inaugurated Eschatology.'

the Kingdom will be established here in full when King arrives!
As fully realised eschatology would mean that we should now be in eternal state, correct?

 

[John of Japan]

How does God support them? We, the USA, supports them. Period. We give them 3.1 billion dollars a year, 8.5 million dollars a day, and that's MONEY WE DON'T HAVE, IT'S BORROWED! WE'RE 20 TRILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT! And we've given them an additional 38 billion dollars in defense funds in 2016, again, money we don't have, it's insane, and all that's just fine with you dispy ignoramuses because "If we don't do it God will curse us". It's insane. Start a thread on this topic over on the Politics Forum, because that's where it belongs. Dispensationalism is no longer a system of theology, it's a theo-political system and Zionism is it's religion. Israel....Israel....Israel...Israel...all about Israel, and anyone who doesn't agree is anti-Semitic.

Blindly supporting the dispossession of property and oppression of an entire people.is inseparable from WAR.

(and I know you're peeking JoJ)

Yeah, I actually peeked this time, and you are still just as uniformed as ever. I just taught a two week block on Dispensational Theology, and said almost none of this. You are setting up straw men (plural) where dispensational theology is concerned. There may be individuals on a popular level that are Zionists and all the rest of your accusations, but it is not a part of the theology--none of it was in my textbook by Ryrie except for Israel and the church being separate. I do not support theologically America sending all of that money to Israel, and Israel's treatment of the Palestinians (and certainly not the daily rockets from the Palestinians which a missionary friend tells me are being launched). If you are familiar with the history of modern Israel, I also oppose the Irgun terrorism that was part of the founding of the modern nation.

Israel is back in the land right now in a state of unbelief, meaning modern Israel is not the fulfillment of most of the prophecies. But yes, Israel and the church are separate in dispensationalism, as well as in historic premil and any other system that interprets the Bible literally.

And now I'll put you back on ignore where you belong because of your lousy and insulting attitude (not your theology). No hard feelings.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

the Kingdom will be established here in full when King arrives!
As fully realised eschatology would mean that we should now be in eternal state, correct?

Yes, but it's all about keeping a proper balance.
An over-inaugurated eschatology would mean that one thinks more about Ephesians 2:6 than about Philippians 2:12 and would tend to antinomianism . An under-inaugurated eschatology would have us either sitting on a cliff-top waiting for Christ to come ( 2 Thessalonians 3:11) or trying to earn our salvation by works.

There was a theologian whose name escapes me who likened the situation of the Christian in the world to that of the allies in WW 2 after D-Day. It was obvious to anyone with half a brain that the allies were going to win; there were huge amounts of men and material going over to France, the German war machine was being bombed to blazes and the Russians were attacking on the Eastern front. On the other hand there were still terrible battles like Arnhem and the Bulge to be fought. So it is with us; we have read to the end of the book and we know who wins, but there are yet trials and grief that will face us before Christ comes again in victory. A proper inaugurated eschatology will have us confident and rejoicing, but also sober and wary.