1 Timothy 2:4 - "God wills ALL men to be saved"

[ICHTHUS]

" For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3-4).

The salvation of ALL HUMANS is said in the Word of God, to be "good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior", which is what this passage, and indeed the entire Bible very clearly teach. However, there are some who would have us believe, that the word "all" does not really mean "everyone without exception", but will limit passages like this in 1 Timothy, to the "elect" only. While it is true, the in the original Greek of the New Testament, as it is in English, the word "all" does not always mean "every single person", yet its true meaning must be determined from the immediate context and other usages in connection with the passage studied. There can be no doubt from this passage in 1 Timothy, that ALL cannot mean only the "elect". This can be seen from verses 1 and 2, where Paul writes, "Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for ALL men, for kings and ALL who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence". Where we have "for ALL men, for kings and ALL who are in authority". It would be a complete distortion of the Truth, to assume that the ALL used here twice, only means the "elect", but must be taken to mean what it does say, the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE. Any other explanation will be a twisting of the Word of God.

Note what Paul says in the Book of Acts:

"Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian. And Paul said, “I would to God that not only you, but also ALL who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am, except for these chains" (26:28-29)

Here we read of Agrippa saying to Paul that by his arguments he was trying to win him over for Jesus Christ, which is exactly what Paul was doing. Paul's response is, not only you, but ALL who hear his Gospel message he desired to be saved. It would be a twisting of the Truth of this passage to restrict the ALL to only the "elect", and also to assume that ALL present in Paul's hearing were somehow only the "elect". Further proofs from the Infallible Word of God that destroy the heresy of "limited atonement"

 

[Tulipbee]

" For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3-4).

The salvation of ALL HUMANS is said in the Word of God, to be "good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior", which is what this passage, and indeed the entire Bible very clearly teach. However, there are some who would have us believe, that the word "all" does not really mean "everyone without exception", but will limit passages like this in 1 Timothy, to the "elect" only. While it is true, the in the original Greek of the New Testament, as it is in English, the word "all" does not always mean "every single person", yet its true meaning must be determined from the immediate context and other usages in connection with the passage studied. There can be no doubt from this passage in 1 Timothy, that ALL cannot mean only the "elect". This can be seen from verses 1 and 2, where Paul writes, "Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for ALL men, for kings and ALL who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence". Where we have "for ALL men, for kings and ALL who are in authority". It would be a complete distortion of the Truth, to assume that the ALL used here twice, only means the "elect", but must be taken to mean what it does say, the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE. Any other explanation will be a twisting of the Word of God.

Note what Paul says in the Book of Acts:

"Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian. And Paul said, “I would to God that not only you, but also ALL who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am, except for these chains" (26:28-29)

Here we read of Agrippa saying to Paul that by his arguments he was trying to win him over for Jesus Christ, which is exactly what Paul was doing. Paul's response is, not only you, but ALL who hear his Gospel message he desired to be saved. It would be a twisting of the Truth of this passage to restrict the ALL to only the "elect", and also to assume that ALL present in Paul's hearing were somehow only the "elect". Further proofs from the Infallible Word of God that destroy the heresy of "limited atonement"

If Jesus loves all men without exception rather than without distinction, why does He say that He does not pray for the world, but only those the Father gave Him? 'I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours'. John 17:9

 

[ICHTHUS]

If Jesus loves all men without exception rather than without distinction, why does He say that He does not pray for the world, but only those the Father gave Him? 'I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours'. John 17:9

Greetings, thanks for taking the time to respond. There is no problem with this text which is much mis-quoted by Calvinists to support their "theory", that Jesus here is showing that He does not love the entire "human race" (world), but only the "elect". It is very clear from this passage in John 17, that those whom Jesus speaks of, are His disciples, which is what the context is about. A few chapters earlier, Jesus says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." (3:16-17), where some have sought to redefine "kosmos" here to mean "elect", which is an absurdity, as in verse 17 it says that "the world" MIGHT be saved, where in the Greek it is in the subjunctive mood, which means "conditional", which would teach that some of the "elect" can be lost.Note John Calvin's comments on John 3:16;

"That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life"

See where he uses the words, "invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ", where you would have expected "without distinction". Calvin did NOT believe in a "limited atonement", which was pushed in his name by those who followed!

 

[HankD]

If Jesus loves all men without exception rather than without distinction, why does He say that He does not pray for the world, but only those the Father gave Him? 'I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours'. John 17:9

Because the apostles are His particular sent ones into the world.
The world is their mission field (...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature).
They are to pray for the harvest and workers to gather in the sheaves.

I am no calvinist. However a more credible definition of ALL and the scope of the inclusivism of "ALL" is that God has opened the door to all men in this age both Jew and Gentile.

On the other hand in 1John he gives us the definition of "the whole world"...

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

So then Jesus Christ is the propitiation for those of this world who lie in wickedness (literally the evil one).

RSV 1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one.

HankD

 

[ICHTHUS]

Because the apostles are His particular sent ones into the world.
The world is their mission field (...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature).
They are to pray for the harvest and workers to gather in the sheaves.

I am no calvinist. However a more credible definition of ALL and the scope of the inclusivism of "ALL" is that God has opened the door to all men in this age both Jew and Gentile.

On the other hand in 1John he gives us the definition of "the whole world"...

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

So then Jesus Christ is the propitiation for those of this world who lie in wickedness (literally the evil one).

RSV 1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one.

HankD

Greetings Hank, good to hear you are no Calvinist, but a believer in Bible Truth. Indeed, Acts 2:21 is very clear of the extent of the offer of Salvation, "And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved" (NKJV). In fact this is not altogether correct, as the Greek reads, "everyone whoever". Likewise in Romans 10:13, where the Greek is, "everyone whoever". Language that cannot be restricted to just a "minority" as in the "elect". Jesus' words in Revelation 22 say the same thing, "and he that is thirsty let him come, and he that wills let him take the water of life freely" (v.17), language that clearly shows the universal extent of the Salvation and Atonement that Jesus provided for on the cross. To says that such verses only apply to the "elect" few, is to do great injustice to the Word of God, and teach[Rule violation edited].

 

[HankD]

Greetings Hank, good to hear you are no Calvinist, but a believer in Bible Truth. Indeed, Acts 2:21 is very clear of the extent of the offer of Salvation, "And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved" (NKJV). In fact this is not altogether correct, as the Greek reads, "everyone whoever". Likewise in Romans 10:13, where the Greek is, "everyone whoever". Language that cannot be restricted to just a "minority" as in the "elect". Jesus' words in Revelation 22 say the same thing, "and he that is thirsty let him come, and he that wills let him take the water of life freely" (v.17), language that clearly shows the universal extent of the Salvation and Atonement that Jesus provided for on the cross. To says that such verses only apply to the "elect" few, is to do great injustice to the Word of God, and teach "another gospel".

Thanks ICHTHUS. However I would take issue with the use of the phrase [quoting edited words removed].
Spurgeon was a calvinist and I don't view him as preaching "another gospel".
Johnathan Edwards, a prime mover of the Great Awakening, and many other men of God to numerous to mention also.

Personally I have no problem with calvinists, worshiping with them, rejoicing with them, singing with them and I have attended their churches and basked in the light of the word glorifying God with them.

Likewise those churches of arminian persuasion as well.

That's the beauty of being a "Mugwump".


HankD

 

[ICHTHUS]

Thanks ICHTHUS. However I would take issue with the use of the phrase "another gospel".
Spurgeon was a calvinist and I don't view him as preaching [edited wording removed].
Johnathan Edwards, a prime mover of the Great Awakening, and many other men of God to numerous to mention also.

Personally I have no problem with calvinists, worshiping with them, rejoicing with them, singing with them and I have attended their churches and basked in the light of the word glorifying God with them.

Likewise those churches of arminian persuasion as well.

That's the beauty of being a "Mugwump".


HankD

Hi Hank, my best friend is a 5 point Calvinist whom I have known since October 1983! I refer to the teachings of "limited atonement" and "election" as taught by Calvinists, as [Rule violation edited], as I do not believe that either, the way they promote it, is found anywhere in the Holy Bible. Charles Spurgeon is from my country, and I have worshiped in a Church in London that he started, Metropolitan Tabernacle, many times. Most of my books on theology are by Calvinists. It is my belief that the L in TULIP is [Rule violation edited], as it reduces the Atoning Death of the Lord Jesus Christ to man's opinion and not what the Holy Bible actually teaches.

 

[HankD]

Hi Hank, my best friend is a 5 point Calvinist whom I have known since October 1983! I refer to the teachings of "limited atonement" and "election" as taught by Calvinists, as "another gospel", as I do not believe that either, the way they promote it, is found anywhere in the Holy Bible. Charles Spurgeon is from my country, and I have worshiped in a Church in London that he started, Metropolitan Tabernacle, many times. Most of my books on theology are by Calvinists. It is my belief that the L in TULIP is blasphemy, as it reduces the Atoning Death of the Lord Jesus Christ to man's opinion and not what the Holy Bible actually teaches.

OK we are pretty much in harmony.

Uh, [edited wording removed] ? That's a harsh word IMO for those who espouse the "L" in TULIP.

"Misappropriation" would be my word.

I believe we have a Forum (if it has survived the redeux) which deals with the never ending debate -

To TULIP or not to TULIP.

TLULIPs give me hayfever.

HankD

 

[Tulipbee]

Calvinist are believers in bible truths.

 

[ICHTHUS]

Calvinist are believers in bible truths.

What? such as the non-biblical "limited atonement"?

 

[TCassidy]

Jesus here is showing that He does not love the entire "human race" (world), but only the "elect".

Psalm 11:5 Yahweh examines the righteous, but the wicked and him who loves violence his soul hates.

 

[ICHTHUS]

OK we are pretty much in harmony.

Uh, [edited wording removed] ? That's a harsh word IMO for those who espouse the "L" in TULIP.

"Misappropriation" would be my word.

I believe we have a Forum (if it has survived the redeux) which deals with the never ending debate -

To TULIP or not to TULIP.

TLULIPs give me hayfever.

HankD

Yes, [Rule violation edited], in the sense that it shows contempt for the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ, as it dares place a "limit" on those for whom Christ actually died.

You see the complete nonsense of Calvinism, when you read what the say of Mark 16:15, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature", where they rightly say the "every creature" means the entire human race. But, to preach the Gospel of Salvation to the entire human race, is ONLY possible if Jesus had died for the entire human race, or else it is worthless.

 

[Yeshua1]

What? such as the non-biblical "limited atonement"?

You mean that when Jesus is said in hebrews to be High priest for the many that he died for, he should have stated the All?
Pr when Jesus stated that NONE get to the father save by Him, but also ONLY those whom the father draws and gives to him shall be saved was wrong?

 

[Yeshua1]

Hi Hank, my best friend is a 5 point Calvinist whom I have known since October 1983! I refer to the teachings of "limited atonement" and "election" as taught by Calvinists, as "another gospel", as I do not believe that either, the way they promote it, is found anywhere in the Holy Bible. Charles Spurgeon is from my country, and I have worshiped in a Church in London that he started, Metropolitan Tabernacle, many times. Most of my books on theology are by Calvinists. It is my belief that the L in TULIP is blasphemy, as it reduces the Atoning Death of the Lord Jesus Christ to man's opinion and not what the Holy Bible actually teaches.

The lord jesus and His Apostles restricted that extent of His death to be towards just His own Elect,so that is what the bible does teach, Spurgeon just reaffirmed it!

 

[Yeshua1]

Calvinist are believers in bible truths.

Amen, as despite some who think we follow John calvin, we worship and follow Jesus and obey the Bible and its teachings!

 

[ICHTHUS]

Psalm 11:5 Yahweh examines the righteous, but the wicked and him who loves violence his soul hates.

To which I reply, "Therefore the wrath of the Lord was kindled against His people,
So that He abhorred His own inheritance" (Psalm 106:40)

 

[TCassidy]

What? such as the non-biblical "limited atonement"?

If the atonement is not limited in application to only those who believe, do you then believe that all persons from all times without distinction including the devil and his demons will all be saved?

If not you LIMIT the atonement only to humans, and/or limit the atonement only to those who believe.

You realize everyone, except a few confused Universalists, limits the atonement, including you.

So, are you saying you preach "another gospel?"

 

[ICHTHUS]

If the atonement is not limited in application to only those who believe, do you then believe that all persons from all times without distinction including the devil and his demons will all be saved?

If not you LIMIT the atonement only to humans, and/or limit the atonement only to those who believe.

You realize everyone, except a few confused Universalists, limits the atonement, including you.

So, are you saying you preach "another gospel?"

NO, I most certainly do NOT believe that ANYONE can be saved without repenting and accepting the completed work of Jesus Christ on the cross. It is insane for anyone to believe that the devil and any demon will or can ever be saved. This reasoning is nonsense. The Church father, Augustine also taught the Ransom Theory of the Atonement, something that Calvinists don't like mentioning, as it is downright heretical! As I have said in my posts, there is NO Biblical evidence to show that Jesus died only for the "elect", unless one twists the Bible to say this.

 

[ICHTHUS]

You mean that when Jesus is said in hebrews to be High priest for the many that he died for, he should have stated the All?
Pr when Jesus stated that NONE get to the father save by Him, but also ONLY those whom the father draws and gives to him shall be saved was wrong?

Anyone can pick verses from the Bible to show support for what they believe in. You give your verses, and I will point you to John 3:16-17, where the Greek word "kosmos" is used three times. Twice for the inhabitants of the world, and once for the world as a place. To change the meaning when it refers to individuals as "elect" only, gives you the problem when it says, "but that the world through Him might be saved", in verse 17. Here we have the use of the Greek word, "sothe", "might", which is in the "subjunctive" mood, which is used for "condition or doubt", in which case, if applied to the "elect" shows that some of them can be lost!

 

[TCassidy]

NO, I most certainly do NOT believe that ANYONE can be saved without repenting and accepting the completed work of Jesus Christ on the cross. It is insane for anyone to believe that the devil and any demon will or can ever be saved. This reasoning is nonsense. The Church father, Augustine also taught the Ransom Theory of the Atonement, something that Calvinists don't like mentioning, as it is downright heretical! As I have said in my posts, there is NO Biblical evidence to show that Jesus died only for the "elect", unless one twists the Bible to say this.

So you do limit the atonement to only those who believe?

And I don't recall saying Jesus died only for the elect. I said the atonement is efficient only for those who believe. The death of Christ brought blessings to all of mankind. Matthew 5:45 that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.