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Featured 1 Timothy 2:4 - "God wills ALL men to be saved"

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by ICHTHUS, Mar 23, 2017.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus claimed that he died for His own sheep, not for the goats, correct?
     
    #21 Yeshua1, Mar 23, 2017
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God intent in the death of Christ was to provide a sure salvation foe His elect, not a potential one towards all!
     
    #22 Yeshua1, Mar 23, 2017
  3. ICHTHUS

    ICHTHUS Member
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    If you care to read 2 Peter 2:1, you will clearly see that Jesus' death was for those who do NOT believe: "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction". Some would distort the word "bought" not to mean the Atonement of Jesus Christ, where the same Greek word with the same meaning is used in 1 Corinthians 6:20, and elsewhere. Sure the death of Jesus brought blessings to the entire world, and the biggest was that He died for ALL their sins. Please show me from John 3:16-17, where it teaches anything other than Jesus' death being for the entire human race? Here again is John Calvin:

    "That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life"

    Notice his own words, "he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life" Nothing LIMITED in this.
     
    #23 ICHTHUS, Mar 23, 2017
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  4. ICHTHUS

    ICHTHUS Member
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    Incorrect. You are picking verses that show only your interest. What about 2 Peter 2:1, would you say these were "sheep", who are heretics and denied that Jesus actually "bought" them by DYING for them?
     
    #24 ICHTHUS, Mar 23, 2017
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  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Was that a "yes" or a "no?" Do you limit the atonement being efficacious only for believers or not?
     
    #25 TCassidy, Mar 23, 2017
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    If he had purchased them back by his blood, they would not be heretics!
     
    #26 Yeshua1, Mar 23, 2017
  7. ICHTHUS

    ICHTHUS Member
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    That is EXACTLY what the Bible says. Jesus has indeed purchased them by His blood, but they REFUSE to believe or accept this FACT
     
    #27 ICHTHUS, Mar 23, 2017
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  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I'm sorry I initiated this (or at least moved it along) but in this case I wanted to defend my position against limited atonement.

    If folks want to say that in my view I limit salvation to mankind that's OK.
    I just can't fully accept the calvinistic view shorthand view of limited atonement acrostic "L" because of several verses which have been presented.
    Neither am I satisfied with the calvinistic explanation behind the acrostic.

    In a simple sentence: I distinguish between the propitiation of the sin of humankind and the justification of the individual human being.

    Overall, IMO TULIP is a flawed acrostic, it doesn't give any explanations

    e.g.

    "T" Total depravity -
    We are created in the image of God.
    Is the image of God within us depraved?
    Well then what does"Total" mean in the TULIP acrostic?

    This is what happens when each of these elements is examined.

    I do enjoy (or have enjoyed) reading the Institutes of the Christian Religion.
    However it does quickly put me to sleep.

    "U" unconditional election.
    But there was a condition: The counsel of His own will.

    Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    I don't mean to belabor this- just to explain what I mean with my opposition to some elements of calvinism.
    .
    Somewhere in the archives this debate exists in total.

    Gotta run errands...

    HankD
     
    #28 HankD, Mar 23, 2017
  9. ICHTHUS

    ICHTHUS Member
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    Interesting reasoning brother!
     
    #29 ICHTHUS, Mar 23, 2017
  10. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Are all humans adopted by God?
     
    #30 MennoSota, Mar 23, 2017
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Are you saying that those lost, had the blood of Jesus purchase them for God , but somehow God lost them?
     
    #31 Yeshua1, Mar 23, 2017
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We are now all sinners, and are totally depraived, in the sense NOT that we cannot still do good, nor that we are athiests, but that we cannot come to the true God except the Spirit enables us to be able to do that!
     
    #32 Yeshua1, Mar 23, 2017
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Doesn't one follow the other though, as those who have had wrath of God propiated will also be those who are saved by Him?
     
    #33 Yeshua1, Mar 23, 2017
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Total means "no part of man escaped the consequences of the fall." By "Total Depravity" we mean that all three parts of man, body, soul, and spirit, have been damaged by the fall and thus lack the perfection to enter heaven apart from the Grace of God. It does not mean every lost person is as bad as he could be, just that his body is fallen, his soul is fallen, and his spirit is fallen.

    What you have described is classic "Particular Redemption."

    The atonement is "sufficient for all" (sufficient propitiation for all mankind) but efficient only for believers (the elect) (the individual human being).

    Unconditional election means that man meets no condition of perfection to come to Christ apart of the Grace of God. God, according to the good pleasure of his will, grants Grace to whom He will grant Grace.
    Romans 9:18 So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires.

    :)
     
    #34 TCassidy, Mar 23, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2017
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  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God does not play favorites, as all of us are lost to same degree, dead in sins and transgressions!
     
    #35 Yeshua1, Mar 23, 2017
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  16. ICHTHUS

    ICHTHUS Member
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    Mr Cassidy, why don't you just come out and say that you are a Calvinist, as you certainly argue like one, and take offense like one when you object to truth.
     
    #36 ICHTHUS, Mar 23, 2017
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  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    1. I do not self-identify as a "Calvinist." I am not a follower of John Calvin who I believe was a baby-sprinkling heretic who was wrong almost as often as he was right.

    2. Nor do I follow Augustine of Hippo, whom I also disagree with on many issues.

    3. I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    4. I do not object to truth. And please do not make the mistake of making such an accusation again. What I object to is people erecting straw man arguments and claiming they are "truth" and that they, alone, have the "truth" and all those who hold to a different Theology hold to "another gospel" and are blasphemers or "object to truth."

    5. I am a Particular Baptist, as everyone who has been on this forum for more than a few days very well knows. Particular Baptists, the Historic Baptist Faith, believe in Particular Redemption. That Christ actually saved me by his finished work on the cross. He did not just make it possible for me to be saved, if I was willing to add something to His unfinished work on the cross.
     
    #37 TCassidy, Mar 23, 2017
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  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    We are all His creation and His possession saved as well as lost.

    Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    HankD
     
    #38 HankD, Mar 23, 2017
  19. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    You proved my point Y.

    HankD
     
    #39 HankD, Mar 23, 2017
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Close enough for me.


    .ibid above.

    Absolutely, according to His determinate counsel of course.

    Dr T you are one of my favorites on BB. I bow to your gift of wisdom, understanding and knowledge (Doesn't necessarily mean I fully agree :) ).

    HankD
     
    #40 HankD, Mar 23, 2017
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