Spiritual Interpretation....part two

[Yeshua1]

Okay...that is a start.
Y1....you need to learn your position if you are going to defend it...

You should be attacking someone like me, insisting I go over Isa 11....,mt 24...you should know all the verses that are used to try and show God has an earthly people and a heavenly people, if you are going to defend your position..
If I ask John of japan...he would have already tried to bite my head off and been all over that more than 200 times Israel means Israel...
I f I asked T Cassidy...he would mount a spirited defense of His postion...but it would be filled with scripture...you should attack me and my position with Zech 14....Mt 24, and 25.....rev3;10. 1thess 4;13-17,1thess 5;9 2thess 1....learn your positon from scripture...no one cares what you think, or I think, if they cannot make a scriptural case to support it....
Isa 66 is a good place and rev 20....even though let me ask you a question...rev 20 says 6 times for a thousand years....where does it say it is on earth?[in rev 20}?

Jesus is shown ruling here on earth. correct?

 

[Iconoclast]

Jesus is shown ruling here on earth. correct?

I see in scripture Jesus ruling on earth from the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem
Hebrews 12:25-29....the text tells the readers He is speaking from Heaven....and it speaks of receiving a Kingdom.....
Does a Kingly reign have to be from an earthly throne?

Psalm 110 is quoted 6 X in the NT. The rule is in the midst of His enemies....
Can you show where it has not yet happened, and where it is on earth?

 

[Covenanter]

Where are the futurists? This thread was started because the previous thread was still going.

 

[Covenanter]

What are the three heavens?
1
The visible heavens that declare the glory of the creator God.
It's morally neutral.
2
The unseen spiritual realm of prayer, spiritual warfare, religions, angels, demons, etc.
The sphere of action of good and evil.
3
The highest heaven, Paradise, the eternal dwelling place of God, angels and glorified believers, the antetypes of the OC worship.
Absolute perfection.

I can add references, should be clear anyway.

 

[John of Japan]

Where are the futurists? This thread was started because the previous thread was still going.

You guys had a whole thread to answer my OP, and none of you did. Why should I participate in this further discussion? You don't have the answers.

 

[Yeshua1]

I see in scripture Jesus ruling on earth from the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem
Hebrews 12:25-29....the text tells the readers He is speaking from Heaven....and it speaks of receiving a Kingdom.....
Does a Kingly reign have to be from an earthly throne?

Psalm 110 is quoted 6 X in the NT. The rule is in the midst of His enemies....
Can you show where it has not yet happened, and where it is on earth?

The Bible shows to us though Jesus here seperating the nations before His thrown here, and that he rules here on earth over a restored earth, as the nations will come up to Him and Obey Him, not go up to Heaven for that!

 

[Iconoclast]

The Bible shows to us though Jesus here seperating the nations before His thrown here, and that he rules here on earth over a restored earth, as the nations will come up to Him and Obey Him, not go up to Heaven for that!

The text says....He speaks from....Heaven!
Isa 2 says all nations flow into Jerusalem to get the law......it is the Heavenly Jerusalem...seems also Gal4

 

[Yeshua1]

The text says....He speaks from....Heaven!
Isa 2 says all nations flow into Jerusalem to get the law......it is the Heavenly Jerusalem...seems also Gal4

All the nations obey and worship Him seated upon his throne, so how can they be up in heaven?

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

I suggest there is a limit to the interpretation of parables, in that they are told to convey a message. Analysing the details distracts from the message.

The whole concept of the kingdom of God requires an omnipotent, eternal, unchanging God. The LORD is King.

In the purposes of God, he did not establish an immediate earthly kingdom. Jesus' victory is complete, he rose from the dead and ascended to his throne. But at present his kingdom is operating in the spiritual realm. We have new, spiritual, eternal life, so are living in two realms, spiritual and earthly.

Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD. Previously, when the Israelites demanded a king, that was a rejection of the kingship of God. But God cannot cease to be King. In the hundreds of years when there was no king over Israel, was God's promise broken? Jeremiah 33:19-26 Kings and priests were human agents performing as types of Christ.

Futurist doctrine is based on a serious misunderstanding of eternal, spiritual reality.

It is completely contrary to the words of "the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" (Rev. 3.14) himself to teach that he is now seated on his throne. He promised the church of the Laodiceans, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (Rev. 3.21; cf. Mt. 25.31)

It looks as if it was more comprehensive then just looking at Isa11, over and over...and saying, stay tuned for the rapture so we can escape...

Not one of these passages suggest any such thing.

Being a Premillenialist does not commit one to any particular view of the "Rapture." But for your information, I do not believe the saints will escape the great tribulation described in the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It is interesting that you actually quoted Ac. 14.22 in your response since it shows you to be at odds with scripture.

Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. -Ac. 14.22

The disciples had not already entered into the kingdom of God (cf. Mt. 25. 34).

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. -Mt. 19.28

When does this happen? Who are the twelve tribes of Israel?

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: -Mt. 25.31

If men would stop telling people what scripture means and start telling people what it says, a lot of confusion could be avoided.

 

[Yeshua1]

It is completely contrary to the words of "the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" (Rev. 3.14) himself to teach that he is now seated on his throne. He promised the church of the Laodiceans, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (Rev. 3.21; cf. Mt. 25.31)



Being a Premillenialist does not commit one to any particular view of the "Rapture." But for your information, I do not believe the saints will escape the great tribulation described in the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It is interesting that you actually quoted Ac. 14.22 in your response since it shows you to be at odds with scripture.

Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. -Ac. 14.22

The disciples had not already entered into the kingdom of God (cf. Mt. 25. 34).

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. -Mt. 19.28

When does this happen? Who are the twelve tribes of Israel?

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: -Mt. 25.31

If men would stop telling people what scripture means and start telling people what it says, a lot of confusion could be avoided.

His seating and their juding would be here upon the earth, correct?

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

His seating and their juding would be here upon the earth, correct?

Correct.

 

[Iconoclast]

Where are the futurists? This thread was started because the previous thread was still going.

Most of the futurists will not enter in, because their theology has nothing to say on these teachings.
The give a list of some of the literal things about the first coming...no one disagrees with that list.
They avoid all the other verses that are literally fulfilled and described by metaphorical or symbolic language....because it does not fit the literal mold that they share with 1st century Jews who did not like when their wrong literal ideas were corrected by heavenly things.

 

[Iconoclast]

You guys had a whole thread to answer my OP, and none of you did. Why should I participate in this further discussion? You don't have the answers.

I do not think your theology allows you to.offer on any of these verses.
You can attempt to put them off.for a future time for someone else...
Try and maintain the false distinctions of Israel and the church, but being you are paid to teach the system you do, you cannot really contradict that which you are going to offer your students.
If you came to a different understanding in the middle of a semester...would you present that to your students and say...here is what I have believed and taught for years, but now I see other things in scripture that where not apparent to me before?

 

[John of Japan]

I do not think your theology allows you to.offer on any of these verses.

My theology does not drive my exegesis. My hermeneutics drives my exegesis and theology. I was raised in the historic premil position, but I changed in my late 20s due to no outside pressure but due to my own study.

Concerning the example you gave earlier on this thread (I assume this is what you are talking about), you interpret Acts 2's quotation from Joel as having allegorization because your presupposition demands that. I believe that the entire Joel prophecy were fulfilled literally because of my presupposition, which is based on what none of you answered on my thread, the fact that all OT prophecies of the first coming of Christ were fulfilled literally. The only things in the prophecy that are not specifically confirmed in the Biblical history are (1) the vapor of smoke and (2) the blood moon, which could have been part of the eclipse (Luke 22:45). So I assume that these were fulfilled literally also, though Peter does not specifically mention them.

I still do not know why your interpret prophecies on the 2nd coming spiritually. Your Acts 2/Joel 2 example does not answer the OP of my thread, since it is not specifically about the first coming of Christ, but about the work of the disciples afterwards.

You can attempt to put them off.for a future time for someone else...
Try and maintain the false distinctions of Israel and the church, but being you are paid to teach the system you do, you cannot really contradict that which you are going to offer your students.

Wow. I thought better of you. This is very cynical. It's also a false accusation.

If you came to a different understanding in the middle of a semester...would you present that to your students and say...here is what I have believed and taught for years, but now I see other things in scripture that where not apparent to me before?

I'm 65 now. I've believed completely in historical grammatical interpretation now for over 40 years. It works. It gives God the authority instead of Man. It's logical. It's linguistic and I'm a linguist.

My previous thread convinced me more than ever that allegorical/spiritual interpretation has nothing to offer. I wanted you guys to give me reasons for your method of interpretation, so I could better represent your position to my students, but you did not. Case closed.

 

[Yeshua1]

My theology does not drive my exegesis. My hermeneutics drives my exegesis and theology. I was raised in the historic premil position, but I changed in my late 20s due to no outside pressure but due to my own study.

Concerning the example you gave earlier on this thread (I assume this is what you are talking about), you interpret Acts 2's quotation from Joel as having allegorization because your presupposition demands that. I believe that the entire Joel prophecy were fulfilled literally because of my presupposition, which is based on what none of you answered on my thread, the fact that all OT prophecies of the first coming of Christ were fulfilled literally. The only things in the prophecy that are not specifically confirmed in the Biblical history are (1) the vapor of smoke and (2) the blood moon, which could have been part of the eclipse (Luke 22:45). So I assume that these were fulfilled literally also, though Peter does not specifically mention them.

I still do not know why your interpret spiritually. Your Acts 2/Joel 2 example does not answer the OP of my thread, since it is not specifically about the first coming of Christ, but about the work of the disciples afterwards.
Wow. I thought better of you. This is very cynical. It's also a false accusation.
I'm 65 now. I've believed completely in historical grammatical interpretation now for over 40 years. It works. It gives God the authority instead of Man. It's logical. It's linguistic and I'm a linguist.

My previous thread convinced me more than ever that allegorical/spiritual interpretation has nothing to offer. I wanted you guys to give me reasons for your method of interpretation, so I could better represent your position to my students, but you did not. Case closed.

God fulfilled the OT prophecies in a literal/physcal manner concerning His first coming, why not do the same for Second Coming?

 

[Iconoclast]

It is completely contrary to the words of "the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" (Rev. 3.14) himself to teach that he is now seated on his throne. He promised the church of the Laodiceans, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (Rev. 3.21; cf. Mt. 25.31)



Being a Premillenialist does not commit one to any particular view of the "Rapture." But for your information, I do not believe the saints will escape the great tribulation described in the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It is interesting that you actually quoted Ac. 14.22 in your response since it shows you to be at odds with scripture.

Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. -Ac. 14.22

The disciples had not already entered into the kingdom of God (cf. Mt. 25. 34).

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. -Mt. 19.28

When does this happen? Who are the twelve tribes of Israel?

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: -Mt. 25.31

If men would stop telling people what scripture means and start telling people what it says, a lot of confusion could be avoided.

Do you believe the Kingdom of God has began.....or...is it all future to you?
Do you believe there is an already and not yet aspect of it?
If an individual person becomes saved today are they in the Kingdom of God?
That same person....does Col.1:13 apply to them?
What is the Kingdom of His dear Son?
Do born again people before they are in a local assembly enter the Kingdom?

While here on earth and seeking to be used as the means God uses your draw others into the Kingdom....do we face persecution along the way?
When those described in Rev6 are put to death as we're the other persecuted believers...would you say they through much tribulation entered the Kingdom.

We rule and reign in Union with Christ.....When Saul persecuted Christian's Jesus asked Him why do you persecute me?

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you believe the Kingdom of God has began.....or...is it all future to you?
Do you believe there is an already and not yet aspect of it?
If an individual person becomes saved today are they in the Kingdom of God?
That same person....does Col.1:13 apply to them?
What is the Kingdom of His dear Son?
Do born again people before they are in a local assembly enter the Kingdom?

While here on earth and seeking to be used as the means God uses your draw others into the Kingdom....do we face persecution along the way?
When those described in Rev6 are put to death as we're the other persecuted believers...would you say they through much tribulation entered the Kingdom.

We rule and reign in Union with Christ.....When Saul persecuted Christian's Jesus asked Him why do you persecute me?

The kingdom is here in part, but waits unto the Second Coming event to make it here in full!

 

[Iconoclast]

My theology does not drive my exegesis. My hermeneutics drives my exegesis and theology. I was raised in the historic premil position, but I changed in my late 20s due to no outside pressure but due to my own study.

Concerning the example you gave earlier on this thread (I assume this is what you are talking about), you interpret Acts 2's quotation from Joel as having allegorization because your presupposition demands that. I believe that the entire Joel prophecy were fulfilled literally because of my presupposition, which is based on what none of you answered on my thread, the fact that all OT prophecies of the first coming of Christ were fulfilled literally. The only things in the prophecy that are not specifically confirmed in the Biblical history are (1) the vapor of smoke and (2) the blood moon, which could have been part of the eclipse (Luke 22:45). So I assume that these were fulfilled literally also, though Peter does not specifically mention them.

I still do not know why your interpret prophecies on the 2nd coming spiritually. Your Acts 2/Joel 2 example does not answer the OP of my thread, since it is not specifically about the first coming of Christ, but about the work of the disciples afterwards.
Wow. I thought better of you. This is very cynical. It's also a false accusation.
I'm 65 now. I've believed completely in historical grammatical interpretation now for over 40 years. It works. It gives God the authority instead of Man. It's logical. It's linguistic and I'm a linguist.

My previous thread convinced me more than ever that allegorical/spiritual interpretation has nothing to offer. I wanted you guys to give me reasons for your method of interpretation, so I could better represent your position to my students, but you did not. Case closed.

Well...let's reopen the case....you mention Joel 2-3....I believe the symbolic language was literally fulfilled when Peter declared this is that which was spoken by Joel.
I do not think it was any kind of scientific literal fulfillment....eclipses and such.....It was a literal change of the rule and reign in Israel and among believers. The same language was already used by God describing the judgement on Babylon in Isa13......notice...in ver .8 they shall be in pain as a woman in travail....sounds like mt24....it was a judgment a day of the Lord.
Notice from verse 10-13.....stars ,sun ,moon, shaking of the earth.
The same with the language in Isa34 in the judgement of Edom.The Heavens Rolled Up as A scroll?The Stars Falling? Did that happen literally, or was there a literal change in who controls Babylon?
The same exact language is used in revelation.....explain how you are consistent in your teaching where you do not explain away the language.

Show where it is not correct....
Or give your explanation to clarify where we have nothing to offer.

There is nothing cynical toward you in the post....I think the system you defend and teach has issues that do not allow you or others to defend it.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well...let's reopen the case....you mention Joel 2-3....I believe the symbolic language was literally fulfilled when Peter declared this is that which was spoken by Joel.
I do not think it was any kind of scientific literal fulfillment....eclipses and such.....It was a literal change of the rule and reign in Israel and among believers. The same language was already used by God describing the judgement on Babylon in Isa13......notice...in ver .8 they shall be in pain as a woman in travail....sounds like mt24....it was a judgment a day of the Lord.

The same with the language in Isa34 in the judgement of Edom.The Heavens Rolled Up as A scroll?The Stars Falling? Did that happen literally, or was there a literal change in who controls Babylon?
The same exact language is used in revelation.....explain how you are consistent in your teaching where you do not explain away the language.

Show where it is not correct....
Or give your explanation to clarify where we have nothing to offer.

Joel was not fully filled though, as ALl did not have dreams nor prophesy did they?

 

[Iconoclast]

The kingdom is here in part, but waits unto the Second Coming event to make it here in full!

That is not the premill.position....where do you see this?