Election, Predestination and Scripture

[Van]

In another now closed thread, Mr. Davis wrote:
Brother Van,

Thank you for your exegesis of Romans 8. You were very thorough. It's very important to hear what someone believes in their larger interpretation of Scripture.

My Church is Baptist and non-Calvin. The doctrine of Eternal Security (OSAS) is taught. Isn't this really Point 5 of TULIP, and what Sproul calls the Preservation of the Saints? Didn't God elect the individuals in the "target group" in what Ephesians 1 says, from before the foundation of the world? Kindly give some details about what you think about this chapter.

I am a Calvinist. Please take no offense. My desire is to listen carefully and comment respectfully. I am looking forward to hearing more of what you believe.

Yes, I am a one point Calvinist, I believe once a person is saved, they are saved forever, OSAS.

No God did not elect individuals to be redeemed before the foundation of the word. No individuals had been created, only God (in three persons) existed. The WORD was elected to be the Lamb of God, and thus when God choose His Redeemer, in Him He also chose us, those to be redeemed. You would not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.

Why could this not be an individual election? First, no individuals existed, they had not been created. Second, scripture says we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. Therefore, for us to have faith, we had to exist. Third, God would not choose us individually twice, once before creation, then again during our lifetime. But God would choose us corporately when He created His redemption plan, then individually when He executed that plan. Lastly many verses indicate we were chosen based on our characteristics, thus an individual election during our lifetime (2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30, and 1 Peter 2:9-10. Ask yourself, when did we become a chosen people? After we had "lived" without mercy!

 

[Yeshua1]

In another now closed thread, Mr. Davis wrote:
Brother Van,



Yes, I am a one point Calvinist, I believe once a person is saved, they are saved forever, OSAS.

No God did not elect individuals to be redeemed before the foundation of the word. No individuals had been created, only God (in three persons) existed. The WORD was elected to be the Lamb of God, and thus when God choose His Redeemer, in Him He also chose us, those to be redeemed. You would not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.

Why could this not be an individual election? First, no individuals existed, they had not been created. Second, scripture says we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. Therefore, for us to have faith, we had to exist. Third, God would not choose us individually twice, once before creation, then again during our lifetime. But God would choose us corporately when He created His redemption plan, then individually when He executed that plan. Lastly many verses indicate we were chosen based on our characteristics, thus an individual election during our lifetime (2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30, and 1 Peter 2:9-10. Ask yourself, when did we become a chosen people? After we had "lived" without mercy!

When you accept one point of TULIP though, logic and Scripture forces us to accept all 5 point as being the truth!

 

[Van]

The TULI deal with presalvation concepts, our inability to believe, our election not based on faith, Christ dying only for the elect and not all mankind, and irresistible grace that alters us from being unable to accept Christ to be unable to reject Christ. None of it has any linkage whatsoever, with our condition once God saves us by grace through faith.

False assertions and strawman -change the subject - arguments are the only means of defending bogus doctrine.

How did we live without mercy before we became a chosen people? By being chosen after living as a child of wrath. Case closed.

 

[MennoSota]

How did we live without mercy before we became a chosen people? By being chosen after living as a child of wrath. Case closed.

We were chosen before the foundation of the world. God is not bound by time. God sees us as already adopted and chosen before our flesh was ever formed.

God displays mercy to all people, whether redeemed or not. If He was not merciful, humanity would cease to exist.

You may question why God would do this. Paul's response is: Who are you, oh man, to question the Almighty and His choices. (Read Romans 9)

How is it that one person is redeemed while another is not? How is it that a philanthropic person who seeks the good of humanity, but denies God, goes to hell, while a vile and wicked person dying on a cross is redeemed? I have no answer other than saying "God is the Sovereign King and He does whatever He wills to do."

 

[Van]

If we had been individually chosen before creation, then we would not have lived without mercy. The only logical solution to the problem is to say when we were chosen in Him before creation, it was a corporate election. Otherwise you must seek to nullify about a dozen verses. No one is interested in asking why God chose His redemption plan, it is perfect.

Next we get another change the subject question. LOL

Returning to topic:
Our election for salvation was conditional through faith in the truth.

 

[MennoSota]

If we had been individually chosen before creation, then we would not have lived without mercy. The only logical solution to the problem is to say when we were chosen in Him before creation, it was a corporate election. Otherwise you must seek to nullify about a dozen verses. No one is interested in asking why God chose His redemption plan, it is perfect.

Next we get another change the subject question. LOL

Returning to topic:
Our election for salvation was conditional through faith in the truth.

Share your dozen verses that you think force God into a corporate election.

Also, remind me again what is your concept of "corporal election?"

 

[SovereignGrace]

Share your dozen verses that you think force God into a corporate election.

Also, remind me again what is your concept of "corporal election?"

God has cast a net upon all mankind and those who are smart enough not to try to escape it are corporately elected.

 

[MennoSota]

God has cast a net upon all mankind and those who are smart enough not to try to escape it are corporately elected.

Interesting. Do you know where those 12 verses are that build such a theory?

On second thought, let's wait for Van to share his 12 verses for us.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Interesting. Do you know where those 12 verses are that build such a theory?

On second thought, let's wait for Van to share his 12 verses for us.

I sure don't because they don't exist. Election is individual and personal, not corporate and impersonal.

 

[JonShaff]

I sure don't because they don't exist. Election is individual and personal, not corporate and impersonal.

Romans 9! Romans 9!

Romans 9-11 is national election of a piece of land and people who would fill it As God acts in space and time.

God chose Abraham, Isaac, Jacob...To begin a nation that would Eventually birth the Messiah. God didn't choose Egypt, God didn't choose the Amorites, He didn't choose the Moabites. He didn't choose the Jebusites. Although they were all equally as pagan. God chose the Israelites to Show Himself Mighty...

Deut. 7
7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

I know, I know. It's too simple isn't it. My prayer is that God would remove the scales from your eyes.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Romans 9! Romans 9!

Romans 9-11 is national election of a piece of land and people who would fill it As God acts in space and time.

God chose Abraham, Isaac, Jacob...To begin a nation that would Eventually birth the Messiah. God didn't choose Egypt, God didn't choose the Amorites, He didn't choose the Moabites. He didn't choose the Jebusites. Although they were all equally as pagan. God chose the Israelites to Show Himself Mighty...

Deut. 7
7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

I know, I know. It's too simple isn't it. My prayer is that God would remove the scales from your eyes.

I take it you are taking back your apology?

 

[JonShaff]

I take it you are taking back your apology?

It's late, I probably shouldn't be on here. I didn't mean to come across rude or disrespectful. Apology is still on, I will slink back into my hole.

Although I do stand behind the content. Tone not so much.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?[Romans 9:21]

Here we see that God has chosen out of all humanity pottery for special purposes. These are the elect of God. These came from the same clump, as Apostle Paul wrote All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath in Ephesians 2:3. The only reason why God's wrath is not upon us was because we were chosen in Christ from BEFORE the creation of the world.[Ephesians 2:1]

It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.[Romans 9:6]

Context shows that the true Jews of the bible were not born solely of Jewish lineage, but all those who are born via the Spirit, which consists of BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

The only reason why God is patient...longsuffering...with the objects of His wrath, the non-elect...is because He still has His elect living amongst them. Not one of them, the elect of God, chosen from BEFORE the creation of the world, will be forever lost.

God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.[Romans 11:2a]

God did not foreknow all of Israel in the biblical manner of foreknowledge. For Him to foreknow is to save.

 

[JonShaff]

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?[Romans 9:21]

Here we see that God has chosen out of all humanity pottery for special purposes. These are the elect of God. These came from the same clump, as Apostle Paul wrote All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath in Ephesians 2:3. The only reason why God's wrath is not upon us was because we were chosen in Christ from BEFORE the creation of the world.[Ephesians 2:1]

It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.[Romans 9:6]

Context shows that the true Jews of the bible were not born solely of Jewish lineage, but all those who are born via the Spirit, which consists of BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

The only reason why God is patient...longsuffering...with the objects of His wrath, the non-elect...is because He still has His elect living amongst them. Not one of them, the elect of God, chosen from BEFORE the creation of the world, will be forever lost.

God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.[Romans 11:2a]

God did not foreknow all of Israel in the biblical manner of foreknowledge. For Him to foreknow is to save.

Romans 9
9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

 

[JonShaff]

Romans 9-11 answers the Question, OK Paul, I understand salvation on an individual level (Romans 1-8)...So what about Israel as a Nation...is God done with it/them?

Eschatological Salvation

 

[SovereignGrace]

Romans 9
9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Now, let us drop down a few verses...

It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.[vs 6]

Israel has always been God's chosen ppl, and I have never said anything to the contrary. Now, who is the true Israel of the bible? A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God. The true Jew, the true Israel, are those who comprise the body of Christ, those who have had the circumcision of the heart and not foreskin. These are the true Jews of the bible. You and I are Jews via adoption.

In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.[vs 8]

The promised Child here is Christ, who came through the lineage of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah et al. Those who God chose from before the creation of the world were given to this promised Child to redeem from the rest of the wicked. Those who He redeemed are a part of Him as His righteousness has been imputed to them, and they are one in Him, this promised Child. These are the true Jews, including both Jews and Gentiles.

We are also regarded as Abraham's offspring as he Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise[Galatians 4:28] is the father of all who are saved.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Romans 9-11 answers the Question, OK Paul, I understand salvation on an individual level (Romans 1-8)...So what about Israel as a Nation...is God done with it/them?

Eschatological Salvation

Brother, I am sure that God is not finished with Israel, seeing that many are coming to saving faith NOW.

But, God has not forsakened those whom He foreknew. That is the context of Romans 11. They fell due to unbelief and we were grafted in. Now, He is able to graft them back in via faith, and they are being saved in today's economy.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”[vss 25-27]

So here we can see that by God saving all the elect Gentiles and the elect Jews, all of Israel will be saved. The Israel here is the body of Christ, not the nation of Israel. The body of Christ(Israel) is the Israel of the bible. And all the elect of God, BOTH Jews and Gentiles will be saved.

 

[Yeshua1]

The TULI deal with presalvation concepts, our inability to believe, our election not based on faith, Christ dying only for the elect and not all mankind, and irresistible grace that alters us from being unable to accept Christ to be unable to reject Christ. None of it has any linkage whatsoever, with our condition once God saves us by grace through faith.

False assertions and strawman -change the subject - arguments are the only means of defending bogus doctrine.

How did we live without mercy before we became a chosen people? By being chosen after living as a child of wrath. Case closed.

We had the mercy of God towards us from moment born, as any of us could have died in the womb!
And the TULIP only will work after yopu accept just how dead in sins the fall made all of us!

 

[Van]

Hi Yeshua1. If we were chosen individually before creation, then we never lived without mercy. Is this too difficult a concept to grasp? Once we were not a people, but now we are a chosen people. Your bogus theology precludes ever not being a people. That is why all the effort is on changing the subject. But Biblical Truth will prevail.

Returning to topic:
Our election for salvation was conditional through faith in the truth.

 

[Van]

Did I say our election for salvation was corporate? Nope. Pay no attention to those who misrepresent opponents.
I said the election of Ephesians 1:4 was corporate and provided a detailed explanation of that view. Read post #1 and #5

Where is Mr. Davis who claimed an interest in what the Bible actually teaches.